In prior amnesty, legalized farmworkers left the fields

[Oldglory]

Originally Posted by gomexico

I've read your "sources." If I were you I don't think I'd draw too much attention to them, if I wanted people to take me seriously.

My sources aren't mostly polls. What, no comment on the article I posted?

[Liquid Reigns]

Originally Posted by gomexico

Yes, perish the thought that people with legalized status would dare to want to better the lives of themselves and their families. Horrible! Isn't that the "American Dream," to improve ones' lot in life? One would think the people who complain about public assistance programs of all sorts would applaud an opportunity for people to get a better job than the lowest-paid one available, to buy a home and pay taxes, and to send children to college ... pay income taxes, sales taxes, etc. No, let's just keep them 'down on the farm.' Slavery was supposed to have ended a long time ago. Yet we have people advocating a lifestyle which is similar to slavery. If people already citizens or in the country legally won't take some jobs, why deny newly-legalized residents the opportunity to work at jobs Americans won't do? If there is a ready workforce without the legalized immigrants, where are the workers who supposedly want these jobs? The nation is strongly behind a 'path to citizenship' program, such as proposed in the US Senate. Even more strongly in favor of legalizing the presence of the 6 million persons who arrived without permission, and the 5 million who originally had permission and overstayed their visa limits. No amnesty has been proposed. It's a long road to citizenship with many restrictions. The burden for enforcement can be harshly dealing with employers who, for the most part, make much of the illegal immigration possible. Dry-up the jobs/money and the flow will dwindle to a trickle.

These "people" aren't entitled to a legal status, they are bettering their lives by coming here and making more money here than from their own nation. They are economic refugees.

What is horrible is the fact that they think they need to come here to better their lives or for opportunity. All the things that you think they pay, they don't pay enough to cover their costs.

Why not keep them down on the farm? What has slavery to do with this? A minute ago you were rambling about giving them opportunity, is farm labor and better income not opportunity for them? There are very few jobs that American won't do. Most of farm labor is citizen and legal immigrant, illegals are the minority of workers even in Ag.

The nation is behind a path to legality, not a path to citizenship, this is your intellectual dishonesty shining bright. Here we go with your diatribe about it not being amnesty again.

We all agree that drying up the ability for them to work illegally will pretty much all but stop illegals from coming, implement E-verify nationwide.

[malamute]

Originally Posted by gomexico

Yes, perish the thought that people with legalized status would dare to want to better the lives of themselves and their families. Horrible! Isn't that the "American Dream," to improve ones' lot in life? One would think the people who complain about public assistance programs of all sorts would applaud an opportunity for people to get a better job than the lowest-paid one available, to buy a home and pay taxes, and to send children to college ... pay income taxes, sales taxes, etc. No, let's just keep them 'down on the farm.' Slavery was supposed to have ended a long time ago. Yet we have people advocating a lifestyle which is similar to slavery. If people already citizens or in the country legally won't take some jobs, why deny newly-legalized residents the opportunity to work at jobs Americans won't do? If there is a ready workforce without the legalized immigrants, where are the workers who supposedly want these jobs? The nation is strongly behind a 'path to citizenship' program, such as proposed in the US Senate. Even more strongly in favor of legalizing the presence of the 6 million persons who arrived without permission, and the 5 million who originally had permission and overstayed their visa limits. No amnesty has been proposed. It's a long road to citizenship with many restrictions. The burden for enforcement can be harshly dealing with employers who, for the most part, make much of the illegal immigration possible. Dry-up the jobs/money and the flow will dwindle to a trickle.

Didn't pro-open borders types claim we need all these millions of illegals here to do the lettuce picking and toilet cleaning jobs?

If they're not going to do these low wage jobs Americans don't want to do, then what possible reason is there to have them here?

[Wicket]

Originally Posted by malamute

There will be nothing gained by this amnesty. Illegals will quit working those low wage jobs once they are given legal status. The farmers and all the many others that brought this batch in will lose their cheap illegal workers and have to start bringing in replacements.

The jobs the legalized illegals will be going after --- by well over 11 million -- will be those jobs that unemployed Americans would definitely take if they could. Job creation simply isn't high enough for us to add 11 plus million people and all their kin folk that will be joining them soon.

In prior reform, legalized farmworkers left fields | www.kfoxtv.com

in the country illegally to get legal status, more than a million farmworkers applied. In Central California, the nation's agricultural powerhouse and a region with one of the highest poverty levels, the impact was profound.

Many legalized farmworkers left the fields, moving to better-paid jobs in packing houses, warehouses and factories, attending college and working as professionals. Others became crew leaders or labor contractors.

That's why amnesty is proverbial suicide without severe business death employer sanctions to prevent future illegals. Of course, a certain party who likes to blame leftists for the problem would never allow this so....

[malamute]

Originally Posted by Wicket

That's why amnesty is proverbial suicide without severe business death employer sanctions to prevent future illegals. Of course, a certain party who likes to blame leftists for the problem would never allow this so....

What I don't understand is that if they do an amnesty for the illegals, why do the law-breaking employers also get an amnesty? What about all the social security tax the employers never paid, or the workman's comp they never paid, and the illegally low wages with no overtime pay?

At the very least the illegals should have to find an employer sponsor who will provide them a good health insurance plan before they are given legal status and pay the same costs that law-abiding employers who provide work visas have had to pay. Not that I believe in any kind of amnesty -- but why are so many crooks being let off the hook?

[andywire]

Originally Posted by Oldglory

My sources aren't mostly polls. What, no comment on the article I posted?

He threw up that tin foil hat picture. It's a catch all that every lib uses when they do not have a valid point to counter facts, reason or even common sense. In their mind, there is perfect lib utopia, and then there's tin foil hat crap.

Originally Posted by malamute

What I don't understand is that if they do an amnesty for the illegals, why do the law-breaking employers also get an amnesty? What about all the social security tax the employers never paid, or the workman's comp they never paid, and the illegally low wages with no overtime pay?

Because in America, the rules only apply to middle class Americans, what's left of them anyways thanks to endless waves of undocumented workers. Everyone get's a free pass at chiseling away at the foundation of this nation, piece by piece.

Originally Posted by malamute

At the very least the illegals should have to find an employer sponsor who will provide them a good health insurance plan before they are given legal status and pay the same costs that law-abiding employers who provide work visas have had to pay. Not that I believe in any kind of amnesty -- but why are so many crooks being let off the hook?

They've brought the bar down so low in the private sector that this is rather unlikely. At this point, the best they could hope for is occasional day labor work, or perhaps a stint through a temp agency. The country is circling the toilet bowl, a descent initiated by the very folks who are demanding amnesty for their crime.

They do have one advantage however... They are fully qualified to do a wide variety of labor intensive jobs which not only welcome Spanish speakers, they REQUIRE them. Why is that? Because undocumented workers do not expect the things you've outline above.

[malamute]

Originally Posted by andywire

They do have one advantage however... They are fully qualified to do a wide variety of labor intensive jobs which not only welcome Spanish speakers, they REQUIRE them. Why is that? Because undocumented workers do not expect the things you've outline above.

The problem with those jobs, the employers aren't going to want to pay legal wages and definitely won't want to provide job benefits when they've always gotten by with bringing in illegals. They'll just bring in more illegals, just like they always have which is why these amnesties never solve any problem.

In addition, the amnestied illegals will not want to do those low paying labor intensive job any longer once they've won their big amnesty prize and believe they're now entitled to high wage cushy jobs. One they're "documented", why would they continue to work those jobs?

No politician has done anything to resolve the huge cost of this amnesty. What of the elderly illegals who never paid anything into social security? Who is going to pay for their nice American retirement? They'll of course be given Medicaid for all their health care but as they retire, they're going to expect a free check from the government. The SSDI program is in even more trouble than SS, how can many millions more indigent be absorbed into the program? These bills aren't limiting amnesty to only those under 30 who could pay into the system a few years before expecting to start taking.

[andywire]

Originally Posted by malamute

No politician has done anything to resolve the huge cost of this amnesty. What of the elderly illegals who never paid anything into social security? Who is going to pay for their nice American retirement? They'll of course be given Medicaid for all their health care but as they retire, they're going to expect a free check from the government. The SSDI program is in even more trouble than SS, how can many millions more indigent be absorbed into the program? These bills aren't limiting amnesty to only those under 30 who could pay into the system a few years before expecting to start taking.

Yup, I would like to see how Obama proposes to solve this debacle as well. It's kind of like when I was a kid and I asked my mother if I could get an iguana. What she told me was, if I wanted one, I would have to pay for it's living space and meals, clean it's living space, change it's water and prepare it's meals, etc. If I wasn't able to provide for a pet, I couldn't get one. Just the same, if Obama wants 12 million democrat voting minions to be granted amnesty, he better figure out a way to support them. Like any pet, they require meals, a living space, health care, along with other additional services like education.

No problem though. All us kind citizens will simply open up our hearts and wallets to make Obama's dream become a reality. How kind we are!

[malamute]

Yes, good questions.

How are the soon-to-retire illegals going to retire? Will they just be added to social security even though they nor their employer ever paid in a dime for them? Or will they be added to the SSI program and given a retirement check that way?

How many family members will be joining their newly amnestied relatives here? How will schools absorb what could be millions in some districts or cities.

What happens to millions of illegals when their current employers decide they can't afford to pay them minimum wage with overtime, workman's comp and social security taxes? Will they be allowed to cheat and claim their employees are "contractors" so no one has to pay into social security or other taxes for them?

I think we can assume that there will be no advantages at all for US citizens no matter how long they've been unemployed when it comes to jobs with 11 million more and soon their family members being added to the legal labor pools. The guy who picked lettuce will now be able to apply for all sorts of other jobs. Will Americans just be given more unemployment extensions or will more be moved to disability?

And what of the millions of illegals now amnestied who are unable to find a job in the regular types of employment since their employers may decide to let them go? Will they qualify for unemployment handouts? Will they just be added to the disability programs?