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Not to sound rude, but your sooudning a latile Right wing here bro.
We escape persecution in our own lands, we are the indians of this land, here before the whites came, we have aright to be here, the gringos stole the American SW from Mexico.
Aas to seconds we keep our identity because it still mostly indian which we have fought and died forto stop the Spanish and Anglos taking away taht too
"Gringos?" Personally, I'm highly offended by that racist word. How can you expect respect when you're not giving it to begin with. (By the way, spell check is your friend)
I am so flipping tired of hearing that this land was stolen from Mexico. This land was not stolen from Mexico. Mexico owned this land for 26 years out of it's entire 231 year existence as a country. Mexico was well compensated financially for this land--the amount of money paid for the southwest in both the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and the Gadsen Purchase in today's dollars would be in the billions. If you would reform your own corrupt government, perhaps you could start sharing in some of the wealth.
However, in the years that Mexico did own parts of the southwest, they were busy enslaving and killing off the North American Indians, whose DNA I also share. So don't get up on your high horse and start preaching about how this continent belongs to you. There is no love lost between the Native Americans of North America and the Meso American Indians or the Mestizos. My people, the Apache viewed your people with disdain. Your people, the Mexicans, paid $2.00 a pair for the ears of my people as well as paying for their scalps. So don't try to pretend a kinship that never existed and does not exist to this day.
Your people were as instrumental in the destruction of the Southwest Native American way of life as the Europeans were. At least those of European extraction will admit that the European pioneers were responsible for the destruction of the Native Americans. Your people want to pretend some sort of kinship that doesn't exist while you try to take land that never belonged to you to begin with.
Additionally, there is not now, nor has there ever been, ANY archeological or anthropological evidence that the Meso American Indians lived in the southwestern United States. Indeed, all evidence points to the contrary. My undergrad degree is in Anthropology. I'm working on my M.A. in Paleo-Indian Archeology. Unlike the general public, I cannot be buffaloed into believing your revisionist history.
So instead of leaving your own lands to escape persecution, why don't you grow some gonads and reform your own government. The American southwest does not now, nor will it ever, belong to the Meso Americans. As an American of European and Native American extraction, I am highly resentful of your attempts to revise history and historical boundries to make it so.
I am so flipping tired of hearing that this land was stolen from Mexico. This land was not stolen from Mexico. Mexico owned this land for 26 years out of it's entire 231 year existence as a country. Mexico was well compensated financially for this land--the amount of money paid for the southwest in both the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and the Gadsen Purchase in today's dollars would be in the billions.
Ulysses Grant himself, who was a second Lieutenant in the "army of observation" of Zachary Taylor, thought the armed march to Mexico was "unholy.” In his "Personal Memoirs" he stated "and to this day I regard the Mexican war as one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation. It was an instance of a republic following the bad example of European monarchies, in not considering justice in their desire to acquire additional territory."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele
However, in the years that Mexico did own parts of the southwest, they were busy enslaving and killing off the North American Indians, whose DNA I also share. So don't get up on your high horse and start preaching about how this continent belongs to you. There is no love lost between the Native Americans of North America and the Meso American Indians or the Mestizos. My people, the Apache viewed your people with disdain. Your people, the Mexicans, paid $2.00 a pair for the ears of my people as well as paying for their scalps. So don't try to pretend a kinship that never existed and does not exist to this day.
Your people were as instrumental in the destruction of the Southwest Native American way of life as the Europeans were. At least those of European extraction will admit that the European pioneers were responsible for the destruction of the Native Americans. Your people want to pretend some sort of kinship that doesn't exist while you try to take land that never belonged to you to begin with.
Additionally, there is not now, nor has there ever been, ANY archeological or anthropological evidence that the Meso American Indians lived in the southwestern United States. Indeed, all evidence points to the contrary. My undergrad degree is in Anthropology. I'm working on my M.A. in Paleo-Indian Archeology. Unlike the general public, I cannot be buffaloed into believing your revisionist history.
So instead of leaving your own lands to escape persecution, why don't you grow some gonads and reform your own government. The American southwest does not now, nor will it ever, belong to the Meso Americans. As an American of European and Native American extraction, I am highly resentful of your attempts to revise history and historical boundries to make it so.
I agree with you that the Meso-Americans never populated what is today the American Southwest, but I don't understand where all this resentment towards the Meso-Americans comes from; after all, the ones who hunted down the North American Indians were either the Spanish, the criollos or their mercenaries, after the Spanish had conquered those lands and annexed them to New Spain. Either way, you shouldn't be resentful; those people are long dead, and I think you’ll agree there’s no point in holding a grudge on their descendants.
I don't hold a grudge against their descendents. I hold a grudge against those who insist that the American southwest is some part of a great Aztlan and that it must be reconquered and taken from Americans for that reason. If you read the posts of the person to whom I was replying, you will understand that he/she is of the reconquista ideology. My post simply attempted to point out to him that the revisionist history he/she holds so dear is false dogma.
And while it is true that the Spanish first conquered the southwestern U.S. Native Americans, the Mexican people who lived here after taking it from the Spanish were just as guilty of horrendous behavior toward the Native Americans as any European ever was. I don't hold the those alive today accountable for the behavior of people who lived nearly 200 years ago. I will not however, sit idly by while someone revises history at the sole expense of Europeans.
I don't hold a grudge against their descendents. I hold a grudge against those who insist that the American southwest is some part of a great Aztlan and that it must be reconquered and taken from Americans for that reason. If you read the posts of the person to whom I was replying, you will understand that he/she is of the reconquista ideology. My post simply attempted to point out to him that the revisionist history he/she holds so dear is false dogma.
I agree completely with you regarding the absurd reconquista ideology and the false revisionist history. Now, maybe I'm wrong, Kele, but I sense some disdain coming from you toward Meso-Americans. You are always writing that Meso-Americans and North American Indians are very different; while that is true to some extent, they are much more alike and have closer blood and cultural ties than say North American Indians and Europeans. Forty thousand years is a blink in evolutionary terms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele
And while it is true that the Spanish first conquered the southwestern U.S. Native Americans, the Mexican people who lived here after taking it from the Spanish were just as guilty of horrendous behavior toward the Native Americans as any European ever was. I don't hold the those alive today accountable for the behavior of people who lived nearly 200 years ago. I will not however, sit idly by while someone revises history at the sole expense of Europeans.
I'm not well informed regarding this, but I'd assume that the ones guilty of the horrendous actions against your people—after New Spain became Mexico—were the wealthy landowners settled in those regions, whom, as you know, were part of the European elite that has always held power in Mexico.
My father-in-law was, until he passed away in March, one of the greatest Meso American scholars/Archeologists of our time. I am fascinated by and have a great admiration for Meso-American Indians. I do not hold them in any lesser regard than any other peoples I have studied.
However, because of my Anthropology degree, I am well aware of the differences between the various regional tribes. One of the arguments that the reconquista promoters try to make is the "kinship" between Aztecs and North American tribes, which of course you know, never existed.
My arguments are merely formulated to attempt to penetrate the brains of those who insist that the Southwestern U.S. is Aztlan. They are not formulated for someone who obviously has the intelligence to figure these things out on their own.
The information I have gathered regarding North American tribes and those who inhabited/conquered the southwest came mostly from my father-in-law who embraced all things Meso-American. But he was, as he frequently told me, a realist with regard to behaviors by ALL native tribes. Believe me, the North American Indians were by no means saint themselves. The Apache would frequently perform raids across the border and take indigenous people captive and force them into slavery.
Most intelligent folks are aware of this and as I stated before, my argument is with those who promote reconquista.
I'm happy to hear this, Kele. By the way, I certainly don't doubt your expertise on this subject.
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