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Absolutely. Although I would have preferred a different outcome to this election (at least so far), I don't want it to be stolen by EITHER political party. If we cannot have confidence our elections are done in a fair matter, then we are done as a democracy, and may as well start choosing sides for the inevitable civil war right now.
That leaves us with the question about THIS election. IF there is enough evidence uncovered by the ongoing investigation such that great doubt is cast on the result, what do we do? I'm not willing to say, "OK, it's President Biden" because I don't want riots. But I also don't want the Supreme Court to start electing Presidents, either. So, do we nullify this election and hold another, but with much tighter controls?
If there is NOT as much evidence as President Trump's counsel has proclaimed exists (and will be delivered in due course), then I'll be the first to stand up and say "To heck with Trump", I'm not willing to subvert the will of the American people just to have him serve another term, regardless of my personal preference. This is WAY more important than the term of ANY President. But the flip side of that coin is, I expect Democrats of Good Will to do the same. Will they?
And to borrow a line from World According to Briggs, "Stop Typing" if you (meaning "anyone") proclaims no such evidence exists. You don't know, and neither do I, but the whole thing smells like bad fish, and I'm thrilled there is an investigation going on. You can't just go down to the Evidence Store and buy a large sack, there are many crimes that go unsolved because the Bad Guys hid their tracks well enough, and that may be the case here. But to say there is not enough cause to investigate? Please.
I'm just curious what evidence you're looking for or expecting to come to light at this point. It's been almost 3 weeks and not a shred of actual evidence of fraud has shown up in court. The Georgia audit is over, and all they found were mostly Republican-run counties that miscounted.
If there were some sort of very elaborate fraud that would overturn multiple states at this point, yes I'd want it to be corrected, in spite of my own preferences for the good of things being done by the book. But Trump's legal team is like 1 for 25 since election day (the one win being that those watching the votes being counted in Philly were allowed to move within 6 feet of the counters compared to slightly further away). His cases keep getting thrown out within hours because in spite of what they say during a press conference about fraud, as soon as they're in front of a judge, they have no evidence of fraud.
Trump's whole plan was to call fraud if it looked like he was going to lose. He said that in 2016. He said he lost the popular vote in 2016 BY 3 MILLION VOTES because of fraud (it wasn't). His lackey Kris Kobach ran an investigation that found about 10 ballots or so that had issues and a portion of them were Republicans. He again said during the 2020 campaign that if he lost it was due to fraud. He told us this was his plan. He said if he won, it was legitimate, if he lost, it was fraud. This is the same guy who won Wisconsin in 2016 with fewer votes than Mitt Romney lost with in 2012. He just says things that are utterly meaningless.
He told people not to vote by mail, and poll after poll leading up to election day showed that approx 70% of Democrats wouldn't vote on election day, and a far more substantial amount of Republicans would.
Why would Texas's Lt. Governor offer $1 million reward for someone to come forward with evidence of election fraud? If someone actually saw it and had hard evidence to provide, they'd probably not need this reward.
Trump is desperate to not lose. It's why he called Michigan state lawmakers to DC late this week. It's why he's filing lawsuits in nearly every state. It's why his attorneys say one thing during a press conference and something completely different in court.
I'm just curious what evidence you're looking for or expecting to come to light at this point. It's been almost 3 weeks and not a shred of actual evidence of fraud has shown up in court. The Georgia audit is over, and all they found were mostly Republican-run counties that miscounted.
If there were some sort of very elaborate fraud that would overturn multiple states at this point, yes I'd want it to be corrected, in spite of my own preferences for the good of things being done by the book. But Trump's legal team is like 1 for 25 since election day (the one win being that those watching the votes being counted in Philly were allowed to move within 6 feet of the counters compared to slightly further away). His cases keep getting thrown out within hours because in spite of what they say during a press conference about fraud, as soon as they're in front of a judge, they have no evidence of fraud.
Trump's whole plan was to call fraud if it looked like he was going to lose. He said that in 2016. He said he lost the popular vote in 2016 BY 3 MILLION VOTES because of fraud (it wasn't). His lackey Kris Kobach ran an investigation that found about 10 ballots or so that had issues and a portion of them were Republicans. He again said during the 2020 campaign that if he lost it was due to fraud. He told us this was his plan. He said if he won, it was legitimate, if he lost, it was fraud. This is the same guy who won Wisconsin in 2016 with fewer votes than Mitt Romney lost with in 2012. He just says things that are utterly meaningless.
He told people not to vote by mail, and poll after poll leading up to election day showed that approx 70% of Democrats wouldn't vote on election day, and a far more substantial amount of Republicans would.
Why would Texas's Lt. Governor offer $1 million reward for someone to come forward with evidence of election fraud? If someone actually saw it and had hard evidence to provide, they'd probably not need this reward.
Trump is desperate to not lose. It's why he called Michigan state lawmakers to DC late this week. It's why he's filing lawsuits in nearly every state. It's why his attorneys say one thing during a press conference and something completely different in court.
Personally, I believe hanky-panky occurs in EVERY election. The question is, and especially now, is whether it is substantial enough to sway the results. Supposedly, it was when Kennedy was elected, with Cook County cooking the books under Daley the First. Corruption and Chicago are interchangeable terms.
So to me, this election simply smacks of tampering on a widespread scale. Obviously, that's not enough, real evidence will have to be provided. Recounting improperly-cast ballots will also not be enough they need to be audited for tampering.
Personally, I think it will require fraud at the "tabulating" end, either in the reporting or electronic voting network, which has been alleged. Reportedly, such evidence will be released this week, I'm waiting to see what Trump's legal team has. If they have been blowing smoke and have no real evidence, I'll link arms with you and admit Biden won. If they provide adequate proof, I expect you to link arms with me and demand the election results be overturned, either by the Legislatures or the Supreme Court.
So, it all depends on the quantity and quality of the evidence. I'm waiting to see it the same as you.
Personally, I believe hanky-panky occurs in EVERY election. The question is, and especially now, is whether it is substantial enough to sway the results. Supposedly, it was when Kennedy was elected, with Cook County cooking the books under Daley the First. Corruption and Chicago are interchangeable terms.
So to me, this election simply smacks of tampering on a widespread scale. Obviously, that's not enough, real evidence will have to be provided. Recounting improperly-cast ballots will also not be enough they need to be audited for tampering.
Personally, I think it will require fraud at the "tabulating" end, either in the reporting or electronic voting network, which has been alleged. Reportedly, such evidence will be released this week, I'm waiting to see what Trump's legal team has. If they have been blowing smoke and have no real evidence, I'll link arms with you and admit Biden won. If they provide adequate proof, I expect you to link arms with me and demand the election results be overturned, either by the Legislatures or the Supreme Court.
So, it all depends on the quantity and quality of the evidence. I'm waiting to see it the same as you.
The one thing I don't understand is what specifically makes you believe this election smacks of tampering on a widespread scale?
I can agree with you that there's likely zero elections that are 100% by the book, but we likely differ on what we think went wrong.
I don't think it's things like "dead people" voting or election officials filling out massive amounts of ballots on their own. I don't think it's things like someone just tossed a bunch of Trump votes in a garbage can or river. I don't believe that widerspread mail ballots led to more tampering or fraud by election officials. If evidence is provided, I'll change my mind.
I think at this point, with the information that exists, USPS intentionally slowing down the mail in certain areas was one of the biggest issues.
There are clearly instances in which miscounting occurs, but I would suspect those are more error than fraud, such as those Republican counties in Georgia I referenced yesterday. Recounts/audits in recent history have rarely changed votes by sufficient margins to overturn the original outcome.
If Rudy and Jenna Ellis have actual evidence and haven't been blowing smoke, I would be shocked. I am not sure why on Nov. 7th Rudy would have a press conference at a landscaping company, let a couple weeks pass mostly filing bogus lawsuits while states press on with audits and certifications of the votes, and then after all that is settled would suddenly decide to reveal a credible case with actual evidence. Seems like a game at this point. Trump knows he lost. He's literally retweeting people saying to get out the vote for the Georgia runoff so Kamala Harris isn't the deciding vote in the Senate.
There are likely some issues with Cook County specifically. I don't know if by administrative or clerical error or actual fraud. I've heard rumors from someone is conservaive locally/liberal nationally about inaccurate ballots given to voters, but that same person I heard from also expected some grand conspiracy that there would be some sort of COVID emergency declared the morning of election day that would cancel in-person voting in Democratic-specific areas. So their credibility was lost at that point.
Political parties and campaigns count votes before they are cast. They typically know how many votes they have and how many they need to beat the other campaign(s).
We clearly need some sort of overhaul of our voting practices. I do not want our elections federalized. But, I do think that the states need to come up with a more robust system of verification for voters. Right now, there is too much opportunity for malfeasance. Leftists can claim that there are no cases of voter fraud, etc. But, that doesn't match the perception. I need more identification to get on a plane or buy Claritin-D than I do to vote in an election. That strikes most people as ridiculous.
No one claims that there is NO voter fraud, but it is actually very rare. A very small percentage. For the individual, fraud is an extremely low benefit for the risk. It’s like stealing a lottery ticket, the crime has virtually no payoff on the individual level.
So all that is left is the potential of hacking type schemes, and after the 2016 efforts of Russia all of the states took extra precautions. The US government itself announced that we had the most secure election ever.
My time volunteering as an election judge taught me a lot about the secure measures in place. Illinois really has this process under control, there was no problem in our system.
Trump constantly lies. Why do you believe anything he says? .
That's what I keep hearing every the time when I turn on any "liberal" (should I say corrupted?) media, but then it becomes clear he doesn't, and all these "Trump lies" are a brainwash just to trigger people's distrust in him.
regarding election fraud - there's no way to properly verify mail-in votes, just none, since a voter does not present himself and his credentials, and it's nearly impossible to detect fraud in this case - exactly what Trump predicted, and of course his prediction was as usual labeled as a "lie" by CNN and alike.
That's what I keep hearing every the time when I turn on any "liberal" (should I say corrupted?) media, but then it becomes clear he doesn't, and all these "Trump lies" are a brainwash just to trigger people's distrust in him.
regarding election fraud - there's no way to properly verify mail-in votes, just none, since a voter does not present himself and his credentials, and it's nearly impossible to detect fraud in this case - exactly what Trump predicted, and of course his prediction was as usual labeled as a "lie" by CNN and alike.
Deranged on so many levels.
It's easily verifiable that Trump has lied thousands of times during his presidency. Like, 20,000+.
His attorneys have gone like 2 for 35 in court at this point regarding the election. The two cases they "won" had nothing to do with fraud. Most are getting tossed because they're BS.
States that Trump thought he won that have been certified at this point: Pennsylvania, Michigan, Georgia,Arizona.
The one thing I don't understand is what specifically makes you believe this election smacks of tampering on a widespread scale?
I can agree with you that there's likely zero elections that are 100% by the book, but we likely differ on what we think went wrong.
I don't think it's things like "dead people" voting or election officials filling out massive amounts of ballots on their own. I don't think it's things like someone just tossed a bunch of Trump votes in a garbage can or river. I don't believe that widerspread mail ballots led to more tampering or fraud by election officials. If evidence is provided, I'll change my mind.
I think at this point, with the information that exists, USPS intentionally slowing down the mail in certain areas was one of the biggest issues.
There are clearly instances in which miscounting occurs, but I would suspect those are more error than fraud, such as those Republican counties in Georgia I referenced yesterday. Recounts/audits in recent history have rarely changed votes by sufficient margins to overturn the original outcome.
If Rudy and Jenna Ellis have actual evidence and haven't been blowing smoke, I would be shocked. I am not sure why on Nov. 7th Rudy would have a press conference at a landscaping company, let a couple weeks pass mostly filing bogus lawsuits while states press on with audits and certifications of the votes, and then after all that is settled would suddenly decide to reveal a credible case with actual evidence. Seems like a game at this point. Trump knows he lost. He's literally retweeting people saying to get out the vote for the Georgia runoff so Kamala Harris isn't the deciding vote in the Senate.
There are likely some issues with Cook County specifically. I don't know if by administrative or clerical error or actual fraud. I've heard rumors from someone is conservaive locally/liberal nationally about inaccurate ballots given to voters, but that same person I heard from also expected some grand conspiracy that there would be some sort of COVID emergency declared the morning of election day that would cancel in-person voting in Democratic-specific areas. So their credibility was lost at that point.
Let's throw out my "gut" and "common sense" in seeing so many aberrations in the way votes came in. I'll defer to the dozens of videos from people I find to be very reasonable; Scott Adams and Tim Pool are good examples. See below link, but it's lengthy to sit through (but very worthwhile). Again, this is too important to simply blow off - you can't have half the voters believe the election was "rigged". Per one poll, supposedly 75% of Republicans AND 30% of DEMOCRATS believe the election was rigged in Biden's favor. Unless Sidney Powell is off her rocker, evidence should be forthcoming. Again, I don't want Trump to be awarded the election via the Supreme Court or Legislative action. I think the only fair thing to do, is if enough evidence is presented, is to set up a new election that has much better safeguards, I don't care if we go all Afghanistan with dyed index fingers. Maybe limit it to the battleground states, but that would be unfair in House, Senate, and local races. If that meant having some kind of "interim" President through January, I could live with that. But do it fairly, and compare the results. And then take the "widespread cheaters", try them for treason or sedition, and punish them to the fullest extent of the law. It's that important.
Let's throw out my "gut" and "common sense" in seeing so many aberrations in the way votes came in. I'll defer to the dozens of videos from people I find to be very reasonable; Scott Adams and Tim Pool are good examples. See below link, but it's lengthy to sit through (but very worthwhile). Again, this is too important to simply blow off - you can't have half the voters believe the election was "rigged". Per one poll, supposedly 75% of Republicans AND 30% of DEMOCRATS believe the election was rigged in Biden's favor. Unless Sidney Powell is off her rocker, evidence should be forthcoming. Again, I don't want Trump to be awarded the election via the Supreme Court or Legislative action. I think the only fair thing to do, is if enough evidence is presented, is to set up a new election that has much better safeguards, I don't care if we go all Afghanistan with dyed index fingers. Maybe limit it to the battleground states, but that would be unfair in House, Senate, and local races. If that meant having some kind of "interim" President through January, I could live with that. But do it fairly, and compare the results. And then take the "widespread cheaters", try them for treason or sedition, and punish them to the fullest extent of the law. It's that important.
What are the aberrations in how the votes came in?
Why do 75% of Republicans think the election was rigged? Anecdotally, everyone on my Facebook feed claiming this stuff with various links keeps getting their posts flagged for false information.
You’re throwing out the caveat that “if enough evidence is presented”.... there’s been about 35 lawsuits now related to the election and Trump’s team won 2. Neither had anything involving fraud. Most of these cases allege fraud from a PR standpoint and then don’t allege fraud in front of a judge. There’s been close to no evidence presented yet. Btw Pennsylvania was certified today.
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