The Rebirth of Center Township. (Greenwood, Marion: sales, loans, high school)

[Toxic Toast]

Originally Posted by Broadrippleguy

As someone previous mentioned make IPS *Better* Granted it will probably never be on the level of Carmels Schools etc.

How do you plan to make IPS better?

[REM]

Originally Posted by Toxic Toast

How do you plan to make IPS better?

He doesn't know, don't wast your time.

[Broadrippleguy]

Originally Posted by Toxic Toast

How do you plan to make IPS better?

Hold Parents Accountable #1. Lot of parents don't send their kids to school.
2nd hold Teachers accountable especially if they are bad. But evaluating them by student grades isn't the best way to do that. I would rather you have a Student in the class with a Camera recording how the teacher communicates to the classroom etc and see how they do.
3rd Encourage more people from IPS to seek College education and whatnot.

[Chicago76]

A couple of things to point out:

-Center township lost more than a couple of thousand people in the last 10 years. It actually lost just over 24K, and is now down to a bit below 143,000.

-The population loss is not necessarily a bad thing. Looking over at the NYT census mapper, the area has become less racially segregated. Presumably, there is a greater middle class presense in center township than there has probably been in 20+ years. Middle class households tend to have fewer residents/household, so that is probably a big source of the population decline. Also: the middle class residing in the township tend to have fewer children, which places less of a burden on IPS.

Solutions:

-Acknowledge this will take a lot of time. You need more solid middle class neighborhoods in the township before you can even begin to think of a sea change at the school level.

-Increase the supply of quality housing in downtown. Currently, prices relative to construction costs and local income are much higher than other metros. This suggests that there is insufficient supply downtown. More residential downtown density = more street life and retail = more reason to go downtown or to consider moving there. More supply would also keep prices in check, which would open up the area as an affordable alternative to more young professionals and retirees. Those are the two demographics center township needs to cater to, because they don't care about schools.

-Continue the beautification and neighborhood redevelopment efforts that have been successful in mid-north and Fall creek areas. IUPUI also needs to increase the viability/branding of the school as a residential campus with more housing and retail amenities to encourage students to stay close.

-With further progress in these areas and a downtown residential increase, areas like the west riverfront will become more attractive to developers.

-Basically, you need to build on the successes we've seen in the past 10-15 years and duplicate each one of them again in another microneighborhood around the perimeter of downtown. Mass Ave, Woodruff, Fountain Sq, and the near north sides aren't enough, but things are headed in the right direction.

There will come a time when the demographics and socioeconomics hit a tipping point to attract families. A 10% improvement might only draw in 1% more middle families with kids. Another 10% might draw 5%. The third 10% might draw 15% more. But it might just be the next 10% that draws in 30% more families with kids. That's how it generally happens.

[indy_317]

Originally Posted by grmasterb

Except that the Pacers money is coming from the CIB budget, which is technically a separate legal entity with its own funding sources.

We need to get over the sports teams vs. people/neighborhoods argument. The two aren't mutually exclusive. There's no reason we can't tend to both.

The CIB now gets property tax income. The whole argument about how they are different is laughable. You can only raise taxes and fees so much before you get a negative outcome. Raise food and beverage taxes another 1-2% in Marion County to tear down vacant homes. Then raise it another 1-2% to raise more funds for Indy Go. Then another 1-3% for more funds for IPS.

If this were to happen, do you think folks would still eat out just as much as they did before, when it now costs even more? Would they figure it was worth it to drive out-of-county to eat?

I'm not getting over it, and most people in my suburban county aren't getting over it. The city folks really wanted to pick our pockets so they could build a billion dollar football field. Now more city folk want to pick our pockets again for mass transit. And in years past, others wanted to jam their fingers into my wallet to bailout the CIB. Sorry, but they have taken enough. They choose sports over mass transit. Maybe once the stadium bonds are paid out we can discuss using that money for mass transit?

Originally Posted by Chicago76

There will come a time when the demographics and socioeconomics hit a tipping point to attract families. A 10% improvement might only draw in 1% more middle families with kids. Another 10% might draw 5%. The third 10% might draw 15% more. But it might just be the next 10% that draws in 30% more families with kids. That's how it generally happens.

$8/gallon gas would likely do more to increase Center Township population than anything else, so long as downtown Indy is a jobs center. Only time will tell if that ever happens.

[Chicago76]

Originally Posted by indy_317

The CIB now gets property tax income. The whole argument about how they are different is laughable. You can only raise taxes and fees so much before you get a negative outcome. Raise food and beverage taxes another 1-2% in Marion County to tear down vacant homes. Then raise it another 1-2% to raise more funds for Indy Go. Then another 1-3% for more funds for IPS.

If this were to happen, do you think folks would still eat out just as much as they did before, when it now costs even more? Would they figure it was worth it to drive out-of-county to eat?

I'm not getting over it, and most people in my suburban county aren't getting over it. The city folks really wanted to pick our pockets so they could build a billion dollar football field. Now more city folk want to pick our pockets again for mass transit. And in years past, others wanted to jam their fingers into my wallet to bailout the CIB. Sorry, but they have taken enough. They choose sports over mass transit. Maybe once the stadium bonds are paid out we can discuss using that money for mass transit?

The issue isn't whether or not this has a negative outcome for certain segments of the metro population, the issue of debate is what is the net impact (positive and negative) and at what point is the marginal benefit outweighed by the marginal costs. We can debate these things all day.

The one thing we can't debate is that a lot of the things that suburbanites are "getting their pockets picked" over are regional assets that have an impact on everyone regardless of municipal and county boundaries. Regional transit and infrastructure has an impact on everyone. The Colts stadium is enjoyed by the region. Like it or not, these suburban areas would never have existed in the first place without the city.

If we stuck strictly to municipal or county lines when divying up financial resources, the metro as a whole would suffer. You could have a wealthy set living within their wealthy confines. And then the working class and poor segments would decline to even worse states. You'd see more economic segregation, more crime, worse housing conditions, and worse education for a large chunk of the population. All that does is make the region less economically competitive as a whole. This drives away business growth in the region, regardless of whether it is in the city or suburbs.

It's not a coincidence that the slowest growth metros in the region have the worst economic disparity (Cleveland, Detroit, and St. Louis). A lot of that economic disparity is due to declines in certain industries, but a big part of that story is that these cities are having a more difficult time attracting new business. You need a certain level of human capital at all levels to make business investment attractive.

[REM]

Originally Posted by Broadrippleguy

Hold Parents Accountable #1. Lot of parents don't send their kids to school.
2nd hold Teachers accountable especially if they are bad. But evaluating them by student grades isn't the best way to do that. I would rather you have a Student in the class with a Camera recording how the teacher communicates to the classroom etc and see how they do.
3rd Encourage more people from IPS to seek College education and whatnot.

1. You want to hold parents accountable (which they already are) knowing full well some parents don't give a S#$% about thier childrends education, how does that solve a problem.
2. You're right be in the most wrong of ways. Grades are what teachers should be judged on but as of 2011 it is not.
3. What a generic unuseful suggestion, if only the worlds problems could be solved with a few motivational posters and pocket panfulets.

[Broadrippleguy]

Originally Posted by REM

1. You want to hold parents accountable (which they already are) knowing full well some parents don't give a S#$% about thier childrends education, how does that solve a problem.
2. You're right be in the most wrong of ways. Grades are what teachers should be judged on but as of 2011 it is not.
3. What a generic unuseful suggestion, if only the worlds problems could be solved with a few motivational posters and pocket panfulets.

Why did IPS have to go around and make sure kids came to school on the first day etc.?
Schools raising kids. Never seems to stop

[indy_317]

Originally Posted by Chicago76

Like it or not, these suburban areas would never have existed in the first place without the city.

And Indianapolis would exist exactly like it is now without the suburbs? Sure the suburbs feed off of Indy, but Indy feeds off the suburbs just as much. Had the white flight been blocked, you could have seen a lot of people leave the entire metro area. Had zoning been established where the suburban counties didn't allow for 60/70s era housing as we know it, people may have opted for Louisville, Cincinnati, or Columbus, OH for a similar sized area, but with the option of suburban living.

Originally Posted by Chicago76

If we stuck strictly to municipal or county lines when divying up financial resources, the metro as a whole would suffer. You could have a wealthy set living within their wealthy confines. And then the working class and poor segments would decline to even worse states.

I don't mind a "shared sacrifice," but the benefits must be totally equal. Right now we are talking about a rail line for the Hamilton County rich so they don't have to deal with a traffic issue they helped create by moving to Hamilton County. Yet these same people want everyone in the entire metro area to pay for the most costly type of transit for these people. In an attempt to bribe us into going along with their wealth redistribution from the middle class to the rich in Hamilton County, they promise us some "trails," "pathways," and a rush hour interstate bus. Give me a break. A more fair way to do these things is tax those who benefit the most more than others. Lucas Oil, Conseco, etc. benefit Marion County/Indy, and they pay more (2% food and beverage, a hotel tax, and a rental car tax) than the surrounding counties (.5% food and beverage, capped at a certain limit).

[Toxic Toast]

Originally Posted by indy_317

A more fair way to do these things is tax those who benefit the most more than others. Lucas Oil, Conseco, etc. benefit Marion County/Indy, and they pay more (2% food and beverage, a hotel tax, and a rental car tax) than the surrounding counties (.5% food and beverage, capped at a certain limit).

From my perspective, on the stadium tax, those that use the facility the most should be taxed. If you polled the crowd at a Colts game, I would bet that less than 50% of those folks live in Marion County. In effect, you are asking Marion County to pay for something that is used primarily by people who live in HamCo or Greenwood, etc. How is that any different than your opposition to Hancock County getting the shaft on mass transit?