Back Home for the Weekend (Indianapolis: best city, statistics, best)

[Chicago76]

I don't really think Unigov was a huge reason for the density issue in Indy. The old city limits were bleeding population by the time it was established and Unigov didn't really hasten the outward migration. Assuming it never happened, the development patterns in the townships probably don't change at all...most likely, you've just got more people leaving the old city boundaries. They continue to leave due to IPS anyway, but at least with Unigov, the tax burden for other services was shared.

The big problem with the lack of entertainment areas or walkable neighborhoods outside of downtown and Broad Ripple is the lack of good on street retail areas. Fountain Square has them, and they're redeveloping. Where else is there are strong built retail district from bygone eras? There's a little stretch on Illinois north of 38th...Irvington has a bit of that on Washington. You need about 2-3 times that to form a proper anchor though. Outside of that, downtown Carmel, Zionsville, and then some other forgotten Main Street/suburb downtown districts like Beech Grove, Noblesville, Southport, Greenwood, etc. Most of them aren't big enough to house 8-10 restaurants, 5 bars/entertainment venues, and 10 or so shops to create a buzz.

[msamhunter]

You're forgetting 38th St, what it used to be with all of the apartments up and down between college and Meridian. Extend that west toward MLK/Michigan Road and you're stretched to IMA. There's still plenty of businesses on north meridian between Fall Creek and 38th st so it's very doable to get the area back to what it used to be and they've tried by adding a starbucks that didn't last etc. There's plenty of traffic, Butler just North, the Mansions of Meridian just north. Problem, Butler-Tarkington is an older community and they don't really have an influx of young people outside of BU students plus there are some sketchy areas around there even with the mansions, ima and university right there.

[chalcedony]

Originally Posted by Broadrippleguy

Just keep in Mind since Indianapolis is the fastest growing metro area in the midwest and one of the top 10 in the country soon Indy will be larger than Cincy/Cleveland/Columbus's metro
Already bigger city wise than those 3 ohio cities.

No it's not and no it won't.

Traveler did make some back-handed compliments, and if he had done the same in Columbus/Cleveland/Louisville/St. Louis/anywhere he would have gotten the exact same response. Nothing to do about Indy folks being particularly touchy.

But at the same time, Indy is not anywhere near one of the 10 fastest growing metros in the country, nor is it the fastest growing metro in the Midwest. And who cares if Indy is bigger city-wise than Cleveland/Columbus/Cincy. It means nothing in terms of a metro area's size. Indy simply annexed a lot of land a long time ago. Louisville city limits doubled in size because it did the same thing a few years ago.

[chalcedony]

Originally Posted by Chicago76

I don't really think Unigov was a huge reason for the density issue in Indy. The old city limits were bleeding population by the time it was established and Unigov didn't really hasten the outward migration. Assuming it never happened, the development patterns in the townships probably don't change at all...most likely, you've just got more people leaving the old city boundaries. They continue to leave due to IPS anyway, but at least with Unigov, the tax burden for other services was shared.

The big problem with the lack of entertainment areas or walkable neighborhoods outside of downtown and Broad Ripple is the lack of good on street retail areas. Fountain Square has them, and they're redeveloping. Where else is there are strong built retail district from bygone eras? There's a little stretch on Illinois north of 38th...Irvington has a bit of that on Washington. You need about 2-3 times that to form a proper anchor though. Outside of that, downtown Carmel, Zionsville, and then some other forgotten Main Street/suburb downtown districts like Beech Grove, Noblesville, Southport, Greenwood, etc. Most of them aren't big enough to house 8-10 restaurants, 5 bars/entertainment venues, and 10 or so shops to create a buzz.

In terms of what you're talking about...

East 10th street comes to mind, and I think people are finally starting to warm up to it. It links some of the city's poorest neighborhoods though, so it's going to take quite a bit of time to recover. But it may be the single best commercial corridor in the city with street level retail, and many of the non-commercial buildings could easily get converted to retail. And the few strip malls on East 10th are largely blighted anyway, so they'd probably be far less costly in the long run to redevelop to something more pedestrian scaled.

Other than that Mass Ave and Virginia Ave have good opportunities, and Indiana Avenue is okay. (Developers seem to be seeing the potential there, especially with the large captive student population.)

Finally, College Avenue south of Broad Ripple is dotted with pedestrian scaled commercial districts every 2 to 5 blocks, which may be enough to generate activity, especially as the neighborhoods south of 38th start to recover from disinvestment. Witness how 49th Street and northward at College has become pretty lively. It used to be that you had to get to at least 54th or Kessler to see much activity.

[msamhunter]

Originally Posted by chalcedony

No it's not and no it won't.

Traveler did make some back-handed compliments, and if he had done the same in Columbus/Cleveland/Louisville/St. Louis/anywhere he would have gotten the exact same response. Nothing to do about Indy folks being particularly touchy.

But at the same time, Indy is not anywhere near one of the 10 fastest growing metros in the country, nor is it the fastest growing metro in the Midwest. And who cares if Indy is bigger city-wise than Cleveland/Columbus/Cincy. It means nothing in terms of a metro area's size. Indy simply annexed a lot of land a long time ago. Louisville city limits doubled in size because it did the same thing a few years ago.

Actually, the MSA was the fastest growing in the midwest from census to census. Now the next 10 years...might be a different story.

[Broadrippleguy]

Originally Posted by msamhunter

Actually, the MSA was the fastest growing in the midwest from census to census. Now the next 10 years...might be a different story.

yep.
Also to note Indianapolis can't annex more land so as were starting to see the population will probably peak around 1,250,000 people and stay steady after that.

[Chicago76]

Originally Posted by chalcedony

In terms of what you're talking about...

East 10th street comes to mind, and I think people are finally starting to warm up to it. It links some of the city's poorest neighborhoods though, so it's going to take quite a bit of time to recover. But it may be the single best commercial corridor in the city with street level retail, and many of the non-commercial buildings could easily get converted to retail. And the few strip malls on East 10th are largely blighted anyway, so they'd probably be far less costly in the long run to redevelop to something more pedestrian scaled.

Other than that Mass Ave and Virginia Ave have good opportunities, and Indiana Avenue is okay. (Developers seem to be seeing the potential there, especially with the large captive student population.)

Finally, College Avenue south of Broad Ripple is dotted with pedestrian scaled commercial districts every 2 to 5 blocks, which may be enough to generate activity, especially as the neighborhoods south of 38th start to recover from disinvestment. Witness how 49th Street and northward at College has become pretty lively. It used to be that you had to get to at least 54th or Kessler to see much activity.

Thanks for the summary. When my wife and I were trying to relocate to Indy, we had our eye on that stretch of College around Red Key and the Aristocrat...big losses to that stretch, but some good stuff around there. I forget the restaurant around the corner with the locally sourced menu, but that was a breath of fresh air too. We were coming from Chicago and crave walkable convenience. We weren't asking for too much: just a stretch with 3-4 restaurants, a couple of decent bars, maybe a dry cleaner, and a grocer/specialty food place. A dog boarder or music store would have been a nice bonus. That area had all of that.

10th street is a good call. It's 2 lanes (unlike 38th), so it's more pedestrian friendly. If a continguous retail zone from Hamilton to Keystone could be put together, that would be a great start. The area a few blocks west around Rural has potential too. That area probably has better long-term potential as an entertainment hub than 38th. It's still rough, but things change. I remember when the near West side was supposed to be the "rough" side of town 25-30 years ago.

Anyway, we ended up relocating to STL rather than Indy due to a job. The good of it is that STL has walkable corner retail and strips of retail and housing on the street in spades + better winters + actual hills. Everything else I'd tip to Indy though. Neighborhoods that from a walkable or retail standpoint that would be great assets to Indy: Soulard, Benton Park, Tower Grove South, Central West End, the Hill, etc. Mark Groth put together photo essays of all of these areas (and 50+ other neighborhoods) in a searchable format here: www.stlouiscitytalk.com

Delmar Loop: Visit The Loop

And no, I'm not ragging on Indy. It will always be home to me. It's just unfortunate that there just isn't enough of this 100+ year old, on the zero easement stuff put in place. Other Midwest towns like Chicago and Minneapolis (more obviously), Cincy, Cleveland, STL, Detroit, and to lesser degrees KC, Columbus, and even smaller metros like Madison have this one advantage over Indy.

The flip side to this is downtown. If more retail and pedestrian friendly areas waiting for redevelopment actually existed, money would have been siphoned away from DT Indy, which punches way above its weight. STL's DT area has many more interesting historical buildings. It has the potential to be twice of DT Indy, but it's not even half of what Indianapolis is. Apart from Washington Ave, it's very, very dead...and I don't see it being what Indianapolis currently is for at least another 15-20 years. Reminds me of Cincinnati in this respect.

[maybemover96b]

Where ever you go, there you are

[REM]

Originally Posted by Broadrippleguy

yep.
Also to note Indianapolis can't annex more land so as were starting to see the population will probably peak around 1,250,000 people and stay steady after that.

Pulling more information out of you ass again?

[msamhunter]

Originally Posted by REM

Pulling more information out of you ass again?

Uh he's correct, the city is now landlocked and has been since the formation of UniGov in '67-68. Instead of following him around and bad mouthing every chance you get, why not offer something constructive.