Your Tax Dollars at Work Indianapolis (Marion: credit, house, find a job)

[msamhunter]

Dems grumbling over big raises for Ballard's staff

Wow 990k in salary for 14 people! I'm in the wrong profession obviously, I should be a city crony. The rationale is they are taking on more duties. Come on people you know how it works, the lowly employees who hadn't had a raise since 2009 do all of the "additional work" while the cronies take all of the credit. This is bad government.

[ischyros]

I don't know whether it's possible, but could all those raises have gone toward saving some of these jobs next year? It obviously wouldn't have covered $30 million, but still.

Budget cuts may hit Indianapolis police, fire departments | Indianapolis Star | indystar.com

[indy_317]

I don't understand all the outrage and shock at this sort of thing? The larger the urban municipality, the more deals like this are going on. Many folks here in the Indy forum seem to be pro-urban, so they don't criticize tax abatments for billionaires, tax money giveaways for billionaires or millionaires. Lucas Oil, Banker's Life, Broad Ripple parking garage, City Way....the list goes on and on. This is life under big government. The bigger the urban area the bigger the municipality, the more of this stuff goes on. Look at Chicago and all the stuff happening there. Eventually this kind of stuff will do in an elected official and they won't get voted back-in. However, I see Ballard as being on his last term, I don't see him running for re-election. So he is taking care of folks in hopes they will in turn take care of his kids when they are done with college (one might already be done) and need a future job either with city-county government, or maybe at the state level. If one doesn't like it, move to a less populated suburban or rural area. The same stuff goes on, but it is at a much lower rate, and lower taxes reflect that.

[bertrandandjules]

You can shoot me if you want, but $120K for the Mayor's second-in-command doesn't seem like that much. And, to be perfectly honest, if he was making $98K before, that's pretty modest for a city of this size. Obviously it's smart to have a debate on these things, and I'm glad the Dems are calling it into question, but I'd be very surprised if Peterson's own top brass wasn't receiving similar compensation.

[Marc Allen 242]

Originally Posted by bertrandandjules

You can shoot me if you want, but $120K for the Mayor's second-in-command doesn't seem like that much. And, to be perfectly honest, if he was making $98K before, that's pretty modest for a city of this size. Obviously it's smart to have a debate on these things, and I'm glad the Dems are calling it into question, but I'd be very surprised if Peterson's own top brass wasn't receiving similar compensation.

Yeah, compared to the outrages that are going on nationwide a lil' somethin' somethin', a little hereyago, a little playin' tha game doesn't really seem that bad.

[indy_317]

Originally Posted by bertrandandjules

You can shoot me if you want, but $120K for the Mayor's second-in-command doesn't seem like that much.

The main problem is that it looks bad because of what has happened with the average person over the last couple of decades. I had numerous relatives, some with minimal education, who were lucky enough to get UAW factory jobs and they could have easily made $120K/year with enough over-time. The higher paid skilled trade folks had to work even less OT to hit that mark. However, as these jobs have left the country, there has been a huge loss of those higher paying jobs, and even decent paying jobs that gave a wage in the $50-$80K/year range. Now most of these factory jobs likely top out at $50K/year and in some places, they are very strict about OT pay. So now you have a lot more people making a lot less yet the cost of living hasn't seemed to fallen with the new, more prevalent wages in this economy. For a while we just used debt to cover the amount of wages that had been lost by your average worker making an average wage.

So now folks see government hacks, basically friends and crony types, making a wage that is essential one house per year. They don't get to have that anymore, due to the world economy, and now they are getting upset.

[Chicago76]

Originally Posted by indy_317

The main problem is that it looks bad because of what has happened with the average person over the last couple of decades. I had numerous relatives, some with minimal education, who were lucky enough to get UAW factory jobs and they could have easily made $120K/year with enough over-time. The higher paid skilled trade folks had to work even less OT to hit that mark. However, as these jobs have left the country, there has been a huge loss of those higher paying jobs, and even decent paying jobs that gave a wage in the $50-$80K/year range. Now most of these factory jobs likely top out at $50K/year and in some places, they are very strict about OT pay. So now you have a lot more people making a lot less yet the cost of living hasn't seemed to fallen with the new, more prevalent wages in this economy. For a while we just used debt to cover the amount of wages that had been lost by your average worker making an average wage.

So now folks see government hacks, basically friends and crony types, making a wage that is essential one house per year. They don't get to have that anymore, due to the world economy, and now they are getting upset.

No, the problem is that those UAW workers, with all due respect, were never worth $100K to begin with and now they have a sense of entitlement that they "deserve" those wages. Outside of very skilled machinists, the fact of the matter is most jobs in the field are very commoditized with very little formal training. 50K for a job like that with the benefits received is an excellent salary. The easiest way to see this is to assume that person X was let go from their existing job and they had to find a job in auto elsewhere, or any other job, and the salary+benefits they would receive if they were faced with this situation. It wouldn't come close to the 50-80K they were making. There are is a long line of qualified people waiting for the opportunity to make 50K in the auto sector. Cost of living isn't going to come down. People just need to realize that the wages the auto industry offered historically were nothing more than a giant "bubble".

The mayors "cronies" have years of training in excellent undergrad and grad programs in fields such as law, business, economics from places like Northwestern, Michigan, IU law, etc. Some are even professors of law, business, public policy, economics, etc. Many have substantial private sector experience. They could leave the city county building tomorrow and likely make more than they currently earn in the private sector, which is what many of them do within a few years. To retain people qualified for these jobs, the city must pay them high 5 and low 6 figure salaries. If they didn't, there will be no qualified applicants for these positions. Not when they can work at a law firm or an economic consultancy pulling 100-300K per year.

[indy_317]

Originally Posted by Chicago76

No, the problem is that those UAW workers, with all due respect, were never worth $100K to begin with and now they have a sense of entitlement that they "deserve" those wages. 50K for a job like that with the benefits received is an excellent salary. Cost of living isn't going to come down. People just need to realize that the wages the auto industry offered historically were nothing more than a giant "bubble".

The mayors "cronies" have years of training in excellent undergrad and grad programs in fields such as law, business, economics from places like Northwestern, Michigan, IU law, etc. Some are even professors of law, business, public policy, economics, etc. Many have substantial private sector experience. They could leave the city county building tomorrow and likely make more than they currently earn in the private sector, which is what many of them do within a few years. To retain people qualified for these jobs, the city must pay them high 5 and low 6 figure salaries. If they didn't, there will be no qualified applicants for these positions. Not when they can work at a law firm or an economic consultancy pulling 100-300K per year.

The facts remain, the entire USA economy was based, for at least three if not four decades, on folks with minimal education earning very good money. I know some who invested wisely, and others who ended up broke even with a UAW pension. Anyways, everything this country is comes from a direct result of those wages and those people buying, investing, etc.. That era is over, and now we are seeing government, which produces nothing, starting to pay similar wages. I know an IMPD officer, with over-time, who cleared $90K in one year. That is one metro officer out of around 1,500. If cost of living doesn't come down, then those folks praying to sell their homes for $175K+ better hope someone from the government is buying, because there aren't many private sector jobs that will pay enough to let a person/couple afford that kind of home anymore.

I also see you played the "I could make more in the private sector!" card. Fine, go do that. We are talking about government jobs. At least the union jobs were funded in part by private transactions. Yes, GM/Ford sold thousands of vehicles to government, but they sold millions to private individuals. Their business was an invalid construct, is so is the current state of many municiple pay scales and benefits. Thankfully we don't seem to have as bad as pension issues as some other states here in Indiana, but it could get to that. I say they couldn't make as much in the private sector without massive life changes. Many of these hacks likely have it good here, and they may not want to deal with moving, taking kids out of school, etc.. So their only hope are a handful of law firms, private companies, and government funded "private" enterprises to get paid at. I don't buy it for one second that these people wouldn't be out making that $170-$300K you are talking. If that kind of wage was really that easy to get, without serious life changes, those folks would be gone in a heartbeat.

[BU191433]

the question is do they ever, and I do mean ever deserve a raise. That is the question, because the timing is never right - it is always going to look bad no matter what.

[indy_317]

Originally Posted by BU191433

the question is do they ever, and I do mean ever deserve a raise. That is the question, because the timing is never right - it is always going to look bad no matter what.

The disconnect is that Indy is a pretty cheap place to live. However, there is this elitist attitude that if one has some piece of paper from a university, they should magically get a wage to live the high life. Clearly someone with a spouse and two kids making $100K/year is no different than two working parents with two kids both making $50K/year. However, they are being rewarded in that such a high wage allows for a stay at home parent. I might be wrong, but many of the married parents I know would love it if one of them could stay at home and just be their for their kids. So I do see such large wages as much more than comparable two spouse combined incomes. Plus, there is nothing saying the mom/dad has to stay home to raise the kids. They could easily add another $30K/year+ to the family income.

I would say raises should only be given if they can clearly show a huge cost savings. The problem is many of these are just are just fluff government jobs. Melina Kennedy early on spoke about getting rid of the Public Safety Director position, which is the right thing. However, I think someone within the party got to her. That is another six-figure job that some buddy/friend could be given, so why write that $120Kish off when you can reward a loyal party member with that position?

This is the bulk of the problem. We hear talks of streamlining government, but it never happens. So now we hired someone to be over schools, and paid that person too much. So now we have to bump everyone else up, but their boss, the mayor, doesn't get a raise and makes less than his deputy mayors? What? If you can't be happy with $80K/year in Indy/Marion County, then I hope you go elsewhere, because it is clear to me such a person is more concerned with $$$ than serving the public.