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I'm curious about this gunshow loophole. Are you talking about private individuals selling their property as they do everyday across the state or are you speaking off all of the FFL dealers selling their products at a gunshow?
To be honest there is no loophole. The vast majority of tables at a gunshow are FFL dealers as there is a severe penalty being caught as a private individual selling guns like a dealer. For that you need your FFL. However, at gun shows some people will see someone carrying a firearm and bluntly ask them if they are selling and how much. There is no difference in this transaction compared to two individuals linking up someplace in the state to do the same deal.
That being said, if I were to buy a firearm I would not go through a private individual because you never know what you are getting as MaxLMG stated. To be honest I can only think of MAYBE three people I would buy from and two of those are NRA certified law enforcement firearm instructors. And to sell, I would only sell/trade with a dealer.
One item I would love to see is for private individuals to be able to access the databases available to law enforcement to verify if a weapon is stolen or not.
Now for Davis, we do have the death penalty here and he is the type of person it's for. I forget though, isn't it still cheaper to keep someone in prison for life compared to the death penalty? I'm not anti-death penalty but I'm also not completely for it. Truth be told as I get older I am leaning more and more anti-death penalty in the majority of cases.
I'm curious about this gunshow loophole. Are you talking about private individuals selling their property as they do everyday across the state or are you speaking off all of the FFL dealers selling their products at a gunshow?
To be honest there is no loophole. The vast majority of tables at a gunshow are FFL dealers as there is a severe penalty being caught as a private individual selling guns like a dealer. For that you need your FFL. However, at gun shows some people will see someone carrying a firearm and bluntly ask them if they are selling and how much. There is no difference in this transaction compared to two individuals linking up someplace in the state to do the same deal.
That being said, if I were to buy a firearm I would not go through a private individual because you never know what you are getting as MaxLMG stated. To be honest I can only think of MAYBE three people I would buy from and two of those are NRA certified law enforcement firearm instructors. And to sell, I would only sell/trade with a dealer.
One item I would love to see is for private individuals to be able to access the databases available to law enforcement to verify if a weapon is stolen or not.
Now for Davis, we do have the death penalty here and he is the type of person it's for. I forget though, isn't it still cheaper to keep someone in prison for life compared to the death penalty? I'm not anti-death penalty but I'm also not completely for it. Truth be told as I get older I am leaning more and more anti-death penalty in the majority of cases.
I am not a gun owner. I'm just a citizen who is very alarmed at the daily shooting incidents that I see on the news. I was shocked to learn as a result of this thread that there are two sets of rules for gun transactions, one for buying from a dealer (FFL) and one for buying from a private party. As I understand it now, when you buy a gun from a private individual you are not subject to the same background check as when you buy through an FFL. I consider this to be a dangerous loophole which allows guns to fall into the hands of people who should not be allowed to own them. I think this loophole needs to be closed. I sent an email to Mayor Ballard's office expressing my concern about this loophole. I received this response, which was a little vague but more or less does confirm that the loophole is in fact cause for concern:
Thank you again for contacting the office of Mayor Greg Ballard, City of Indianapolis. Gun shows are a unique marketplace for guns
because they feature sales from two types of vendors - federal firearm licensees (FFLs) and private sellers. By law, FFLs include anyone who sells guns
professionally - at a gun store, a pawn shop, from their home, or at a gun show. Private sellers are individuals who are not engaged in the business but who may make occasional sales from their personal collection. Both are subject to different federal standards regarding gun sales, most importantly regarding background checks and recordkeeping. Law enforcement agencies have repeatedly expressed concerns about the impact of these different practices. Please contact your federal representatives as well to share your concerns of the process of gun sales national wide.
My feeling about the death penalty is that it is the most severe form of punishment for a crime such as murdering a police officer. I feel that it is therefore the strongest deterent in preventing this kind of crime from happening again. I'm less concerned about whether the death penalty or life in prison is cheaper. Because Indiana does have the death penalty, I think it should be used in this case as a deterent to further acts of violence.
Again, there are no absolute solutions to this problem, but there are many steps in the right direction. I have no agenda other than doing whatever I can to stop the daily violence occurring in Indianapolis and cities across America. And I see doing whatever can be done to get guns out of the hands of people who use them to commit violent crime as a logical first step.
And again, I encourage every citizen who honestly cares about stopping the violence to speak up. Demand that your elected officials take every step possible to reduce this daily violence. Demand solutions instead of empty slogans. Demand that the media ask the same tough questions of our elected officials. Each individual has an unprecedented amount of power to bring about solutions if we simply step up and engage the right people with the right questions.
I am not a gun owner. I'm just a citizen who is very alarmed at the daily shooting incidents that I see on the news. I was shocked to learn as a result of this thread that there are two sets of rules for gun transactions, one for buying from a dealer (FFL) and one for buying from a private party. As I understand it now, when you buy a gun from a private individual you are not subject to the same background check as when you buy through an FFL. I consider this to be a dangerous loophole which allows guns to fall into the hands of people who should not be allowed to own them. I think this loophole needs to be closed. I sent an email to Mayor Ballard's office expressing my concern about this loophole. I received this response, which was a little vague but more or less does confirm that the loophole is in fact cause for concern:
While not a loophole per se, yes there are two different laws regarding purchasing a firearm. And yes, it IS dangerous and I do think that something needs to be done. Perfect example was way back when I was a teenager I worked at a carwash where most of the older guys were felons. One specifically went into detail about how to buy a firearm from a private individual to avoid the checks. This was not TOO long ago being it was the mid 80s but at that time you could find what you want right of the newspaper from a private person. My problem is that it has nothing to do with a gun show.
In this situation though that would not have helped since in Indiana you do not need a background check for rifles. Only handguns.
Quote:
My feeling about the death penalty is that it is the most severe form of punishment for a crime such as murdering a police officer. I feel that it is therefore the strongest deterent in preventing this kind of crime from happening again. I'm less concerned about whether the death penalty or life in prison is cheaper. Because Indiana does have the death penalty, I think it should be used in this case as a deterent to further acts of violence.
To me it seems like the dp is not a real deterent, especially when someone can sit on death row for 20+ years. For cases like this I say lock them up in a 8'x8' room with no human contact for the rest of their life.
Quote:
Again, there are no absolute solutions to this problem, but there are many steps in the right direction. I have no agenda other than doing whatever I can to stop the daily violence occurring in Indianapolis and cities across America. And I see doing whatever can be done to get guns out of the hands of people who use them to commit violent crime as a logical first step.
And again, I encourage every citizen who honestly cares about stopping the violence to speak up. Demand that your elected officials take every step possible to reduce this daily violence. Demand solutions instead of empty slogans. Demand that the media ask the same tough questions of our elected officials. Each individual has an unprecedented amount of power to bring about solutions if we simply step up and engage the right people with the right questions.
Amazingly over the last few years according to FBI statistics violent crime is going down BUT the perception is opposite. Personally I think that this is an opportunity. Like the NRA states people kill people. After 20 years military service to me a firearm is just a tool. It's not good nor evil. Honestly they are like hammers to me in that both are tools. Do I personally believe that firearms are the problem? Honestly no I don't perfect example of this is Switzerland where every household is required by law to have a usable firearm. Those of the right age must have a fully automatic weapon in their house. Not semi-automatic rifles pretending to be an automatic military grade weapon like we have here in the States. Best of all Switzerland does not have the violence that we have.
However like you said, something needs to be done. I honestly think that our society is sick. Something is wrong. Take for example the rookie who was shot and killed in NJ. More people are celebrating the thug who murdered the LEO then mourning the death of the poor officer. How horrible is that??? The solution to our problems is not easy.
While not a loophole per se, yes there are two different laws regarding purchasing a firearm. And yes, it IS dangerous and I do think that something needs to be done. Perfect example was way back when I was a teenager I worked at a carwash where most of the older guys were felons. One specifically went into detail about how to buy a firearm from a private individual to avoid the checks. This was not TOO long ago being it was the mid 80s but at that time you could find what you want right of the newspaper from a private person. My problem is that it has nothing to do with a gun show.
In this situation though that would not have helped since in Indiana you do not need a background check for rifles. Only handguns.
To me it seems like the dp is not a real deterent, especially when someone can sit on death row for 20+ years. For cases like this I say lock them up in a 8'x8' room with no human contact for the rest of their life.
Amazingly over the last few years according to FBI statistics violent crime is going down BUT the perception is opposite. Personally I think that this is an opportunity. Like the NRA states people kill people. After 20 years military service to me a firearm is just a tool. It's not good nor evil. Honestly they are like hammers to me in that both are tools. Do I personally believe that firearms are the problem? Honestly no I don't perfect example of this is Switzerland where every household is required by law to have a usable firearm. Those of the right age must have a fully automatic weapon in their house. Not semi-automatic rifles pretending to be an automatic military grade weapon like we have here in the States. Best of all Switzerland does not have the violence that we have.
However like you said, something needs to be done. I honestly think that our society is sick. Something is wrong. Take for example the rookie who was shot and killed in NJ. More people are celebrating the thug who murdered the LEO then mourning the death of the poor officer. How horrible is that??? The solution to our problems is not easy.
People do kill people. They're doing it every single day in Indy. If you reduce the availability of guns to the people who are doing the killing it would reduce the violence. How do you do that? Here's an article I found which describes the different ways which criminals get guns illegally:
You start enacting laws which hold the "straw men" who legally purchase guns and channel them into the hands of criminals responsible for the crimes committed using their gun. And you root out and prosecute FFL's who run side businesses channeling guns to people who should never have them. Put those guys in an 8x8 cell too!
These things should be no-brainers, so why hasn't it happened long ago? That's the multi-billion dollar question. I believe that the answer to that question is the NRA agenda. They have become a radical organization whose message is that the solution to everything is simply more guns. Let's all carry guns and just shoot it out in schools and at the mall each day. It's not about the second amendment, it's about the gun manufactures profits and about massive donations by radical backers who ironically call themselves "conservatives". The political power of the NRA makes politicians at every level of government tremble in fear. Anyone who ever wants to get elected to public office, particularly in a red state, dare not cross the NRA. So... here we are now. So far THIS week it's one fatal shooting on the Northeast side, one fatal shooting one the west side, and a killing with a hammer on the west side. And it's only Tuesday and the day is still young...
You're right, the solution to this problem is not easy. If people want to "stop the violence", then they have to hold their elected officials accountable. If they are not willing to do that, then as a society you live by the sword and you die by the sword. And eventually anybody who can go somewhere else will go somewhere else and businesses will eventually start leaving your city in droves. And then all that you will have left will be what Detroit is today. So the time is now to do everything that can be done.
I don't specifically know the law regarding firearm purchases in Indiana as it relates to transactions. There is a legal requirement to be an actual dealer which is where I buy and sell at an actual store. I don't know if they run the checks as a dealer at the gun shows. To be honest, when I go to a gun show I only get ammo and accessories, although I havent been in awhile because they are gouging and I don't live in Indiana anymore.
I'm not referring to simply an exchange of goods for cash as with any transaction, and maybe loop hole is the wrong term.
Maybe this will clear it up:
Indiana:
-Buy guns at gun store, background check conducted, purchased, legal transaction.
-Buy guns from another person as a 'private sale', NO background check conducted, purchased, legal transaction.
California:
-Buy guns at gun store, background check conducted, purchased, legal transaction.
-Buy guns from another person as a 'private sale', NO background check conducted, purchased, illlegal transaction.
My understanding is even if it is a 'private sale', both parties must go to a FFL, pay the FFL, and have the FFL conduct the background check for the 'buyer'.
If this is not performed, then both parties in the 'sale' can be prosecuted.
The reason why I said loophole is b/c the background check specifically can be skirted with no legal ramifications in Indiana. I don't agree with that because it increases the 'accessibility' to firearms. Regardless of what anyone says, (guns are a tool, people kill people, etc, etc....) the ability and potential to harm with a firearm should warrant more restriction to access vs. a kitchen knife. So, I suppose it's 2 seperate laws regarding the issue, not a "loophole" in a sense. The reason I used that term is because it is generally understood when buying a firearm a background check is required to accompany the purchase. In Indiana, it's not mandated. I'm not sure if other states also do this, I have no idea and won't pretend that I do know about other state laws regarding the issue.
Granted there is a small cost involved because you have to go to a FFL to have them conduct a background check and it's a bit of a hassle, but I think even the most conservative gun owners in Indiana wouldn't have a problem mandating that all purchases private or with the store be legally forced to conduct a background check. Merely because it would halt any sale that did not clear for obvious reasons. If a firearm purchase is halted due to a bad background check, it is most likely due to the person having a felony or have mental instability issues to the extent that the person received professional treatment. I don't have any problem with those kinds of people having their 'right to bear arms' being taken away.
I remember back in 2012, i looked on the internet and found a fireman in Indianapolis listing a really nice stainless .45 handgun no longer in production that I wanted. He has listed it on an official gun broker website, but I contacted him and told him I lived in Indianapolis, and asked him if he wanted to just meet up in person and I pay cash for the gun and he just delete the listing.
He didn't have any problem doing this. We never met up and I never bought the gun because we couldn't agree on a price. He wasn't willing to budge b/c he needed the money and I didn't want to pay what he was asking for.
It was very nice though. If you have ever seen the movie "US Marshalls" with Robert Downey Jr. and Tommy Lee Jones, it's the silver gun he has at the beginning of the movie except in a .45 cal, his is a 9mm.
Then later on he switches to a Glock later on when he commits the crime then that's the premise of why Tommy Lee Jones knew he commited the murder.
Last edited by MaxLMG; 07-15-2014 at 03:33 PM..
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