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Another thing that I note is that there is a big difference in Hispanic populations between Indianapolis and Chicago. Not only are there more Hispanics in Chicago but they are more established and more affluent than many of the Hispanics I have seen in Indianapolis and small towns in Indiana (and other small towns nationwide). I think in some ways the Hispanics in Indianapolis will more mirror Texas in 20 to 30 years as many Hispanic immigrants choose to work for 20 dollars an hour in a factory in Chicago vs working landscaping or other minimum wage work in smaller markets like Indianapolis.
Also, hispanics in Chicago are more educated and affluent, many being 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants. We certainly have pisa (I doubt most city day posters in their ivory towers have a clue what this means) Hispanics in Chicago but a majority of the Hispanics I have met in Indiana fit this description. You see this in Chicago hispanic neighborhoods (humboldt park, little village, Pilsen) and some Hispanic suburbs (aurora, melrose park, rolling meadows, carpentersville) but you also see many professionals and business owners along with factory workers. Again, is is a function that Chicago Hispanics tend on average to be more established than many of the more recent Hispanic immigrants you see in Indianapolis.
White flight in Chicago is actually being driven by influx of Hispanics as Europeans go to further out suburbs (norridge, hardwood heights). Not enough Hispanics in Indianapolis to drive this. It is mostly blacks moving into formerly white areas, mostly east and west side neighborhoods.
In the 1980s we actually did our holiday shopping at Washington square and Lafayette square. I would not let my enemies shop there now. True story, guy in my church had his station wagon stolen twice from the same parking lot in Lafayette square in the 1990s.
All the people I know from Chicago who have relocated to Indy only look to or side and particularly nor suburbs such as Carmel and zionsville. Areas like greenwood and speedway and beech grove are not even considered and are areas I believe that will see the next major decline though I don't know if white flight will be a big thing in these areas, just more low income people, mostly lower income and less educated whites.
Yep. I'm not a Republican, but what amazes me is that so many cities that vote Democrat are as effectively segregated as they are.
Seattle, San Francisco, Baltimore, Detroit, Milwaukee, Chicago, Cleveland, Gary.... all heavily Democratic cities with generations of liberal government -- and all still effectively segregated when you really get down to it.
Why Indianapolis, a former stronghold of the KKK, has less racial tension than Chicago and St. Louis, I'm not sure I fully understand. I was going to say because gentrification is not a huge deal here, but it's not a huge deal in Detroit and STL. One of the cities that bothers me the most when you look at growing racial tension and gentrification is San Francisco, which is as liberal as they come.
Interesting, too, that a lot of towns and cities where racial tension is at its highest often have very little voter participation. I read somewhere that 12% of people in Ferguson, Missouri, voted in the last municipal elections. That includes everyone in Ferguson. I'm sure that percentage is way lower among African Americans there. If the police force being overwhelmingly white is a problem, that's something that can be solved by voter pressure.
Indianapolis has always had plenty of racial tension. Just because the city doesn't have a history of rioting doesn't mean it has less racial tension than the cities you mentioned.
Another thing that I note is that there is a big difference in Hispanic populations between Indianapolis and Chicago. Not only are there more Hispanics in Chicago but they are more established and more affluent than many of the Hispanics I have seen in Indianapolis and small towns in Indiana (and other small towns nationwide). I think in some ways the Hispanics in Indianapolis will more mirror Texas in 20 to 30 years as many Hispanic immigrants choose to work for 20 dollars an hour in a factory in Chicago vs working landscaping or other minimum wage work in smaller markets like Indianapolis.
Also, hispanics in Chicago are more educated and affluent, many being 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants. We certainly have pisa (I doubt most city day posters in their ivory towers have a clue what this means) Hispanics in Chicago but a majority of the Hispanics I have met in Indiana fit this description. You see this in Chicago hispanic neighborhoods (humboldt park, little village, Pilsen) and some Hispanic suburbs (aurora, melrose park, rolling meadows, carpentersville) but you also see many professionals and business owners along with factory workers. Again, is is a function that Chicago Hispanics tend on average to be more established than many of the more recent Hispanic immigrants you see in Indianapolis.
White flight in Chicago is actually being driven by influx of Hispanics as Europeans go to further out suburbs (norridge, hardwood heights). Not enough Hispanics in Indianapolis to drive this. It is mostly blacks moving into formerly white areas, mostly east and west side neighborhoods.
In the 1980s we actually did our holiday shopping at Washington square and Lafayette square. I would not let my enemies shop there now. True story, guy in my church had his station wagon stolen twice from the same parking lot in Lafayette square in the 1990s.
All the people I know from Chicago who have relocated to Indy only look to or side and particularly nor suburbs such as Carmel and zionsville. Areas like greenwood and speedway and beech grove are not even considered and are areas I believe that will see the next major decline though I don't know if white flight will be a big thing in these areas, just more low income people, mostly lower income and less educated whites.
No disrespect but why are you comparing Chicago to Indianapolis? They are totally different and besides Chicago is experiencing something Indianapolis isn't ... Black flight. Blacks are leaving Chicago in droves and they aren't heading to the suburbs. They are migrating back to the south. There are more opportunities and believe it or not there is less racism.
No disrespect but why are you comparing Chicago to Indianapolis? They are totally different and besides Chicago is experiencing something Indianapolis isn't ... Black flight. Blacks are leaving Chicago in droves and they aren't heading to the suburbs. They are migrating back to the south. There are more opportunities and believe it or not there is less racism.
I would agree there's way less racism in certain parts of the South, the parts that have a lot of good jobs.
Racism often pokes its head up where there's already a lot of social instability and job loss, and that's less true of the New South than it is of the majority of the Midwest right now.
Also, I'm not going to deny that racism is still very real. But if I can just say this, I'm not totally convinced that a lot of the "racism" that still exists in places like Indianapolis is directed toward one's race, per se, nearly as much as it's directed toward behavior. Come into an office sagging your pants down and looking for a job, I don't care if you're white, black OR Hispanic, I'm not a manager, but I wouldn't give you a job if I was one. That's not racism. Do I want to live on a block with wannabe gangsters? No. Frankly I don't. That's not racism.
When it comes to Indy.... look, Southside, Northside, they're both racist in their own way. Some good old bloy blowhard flying a Confederate flag frankly doesn't bother me near as much as the economic segregation that's closing down around us. If blacks and Hispanics can't afford to live in "good" neighborhoods because there's no jobs and affordable housing, well, honestly, you might as well just run the Rebel flag up on top of the Statehouse. They'll be effectively shut in the 'hood forever.
Another thing that I note is that there is a big difference in Hispanic populations between Indianapolis and Chicago. Not only are there more Hispanics in Chicago but they are more established and more affluent than many of the Hispanics I have seen in Indianapolis and small towns in Indiana (and other small towns nationwide). I think in some ways the Hispanics in Indianapolis will more mirror Texas in 20 to 30 years as many Hispanic immigrants choose to work for 20 dollars an hour in a factory in Chicago vs working landscaping or other minimum wage work in smaller markets like Indianapolis.
Also, hispanics in Chicago are more educated and affluent, many being 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants. We certainly have pisa (I doubt most city day posters in their ivory towers have a clue what this means) Hispanics in Chicago but a majority of the Hispanics I have met in Indiana fit this description. You see this in Chicago hispanic neighborhoods (humboldt park, little village, Pilsen) and some Hispanic suburbs (aurora, melrose park, rolling meadows, carpentersville) but you also see many professionals and business owners along with factory workers. Again, is is a function that Chicago Hispanics tend on average to be more established than many of the more recent Hispanic immigrants you see in Indianapolis.
White flight in Chicago is actually being driven by influx of Hispanics as Europeans go to further out suburbs (norridge, hardwood heights). Not enough Hispanics in Indianapolis to drive this. It is mostly blacks moving into formerly white areas, mostly east and west side neighborhoods.
In the 1980s we actually did our holiday shopping at Washington square and Lafayette square. I would not let my enemies shop there now. True story, guy in my church had his station wagon stolen twice from the same parking lot in Lafayette square in the 1990s.
All the people I know from Chicago who have relocated to Indy only look to or side and particularly nor suburbs such as Carmel and zionsville. Areas like greenwood and speedway and beech grove are not even considered and are areas I believe that will see the next major decline though I don't know if white flight will be a big thing in these areas, just more low income people, mostly lower income and less educated whites.
The difference that you cite here boils down to immigration timeframe more than anything else. The Hispanic community in Chicago has been there for a much longer period of time, so you see fewer "pisa" and a more integrated mix of residents. Most of these middle class suburban Hispanic families started out in the prior generation or two doing the exact same jobs you seem to think Indy Hispanic residents will always be doing: minimum wage work. FWIW, most of them aren't doing this type of work anyway. The focus is more on distribution/logistics/transport (big in Indy due to location), some manufacturing, and construction trades. Regardless, it takes time to accumulate capital, put future generations into a position to succeed with better resources, and move up the economic ladder. This will happen in Indy the same way it is happening in Chicago. Indy is just starting from a place about 20 years behind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humboldt1
Blacks in Chicago are migrating to the suburbs (broad view, Bellwood, Berkeley, homewood, Flossmor along with many other south and near west suburbs
That is true but I believe what the poster was referring to was the fact that the entire metro has seen a 4-5% reduction in the number of African Americans. Many might be moving from city to suburbs, but the region as a whole is losing them because many have decided to move elsewhere.
I don't buy the racism argument at all though. Why? Because non-Hispanic white population is has also declined in the metro 4-5% from 2000 to 2010.
Last edited by Chicago76; 11-22-2014 at 12:24 PM..
I agree that Indy is 20 years behind Chicago in Hispanic migration. My wife is Mexican and her parents came here in 1979 with some relatives arriving prior and many after. I agree also,that Indy is a huge draw for logistics. In Chicago many of the truck drivers are eastern European but we are seeing more and more Hispanics as more Hispanics are born here and more get their papers. It will be interesting to see if Obama giving papers to 5MM illegal aliens will cause more Hispanics to go into logistics as truck drivers (not just $10/hr warehouse workers). Long haul truckers are making as much as 95k annually to drive company trucks and some owner operators are making up to 160k annually. Not bad for someone with high school but the big catch is that you need to have commercial license which is not available to illegals living in the shadows working for minimum wage.
Indy may actually see an influx of Hispanic drivers if this holds true and you will see more of a middle class develop than low level factory and manual labor and service jobs many illegal Hispanics do now in Indy.
Is much of the decrease in black and white populations being offset by increase of hispanics? I am white but yet my kids will be considered Hispanic. Multiply this across thousands of other white/Hispanic couples and you could easily add thousands of Hispanics and decrease the white population.
I would not be surprised to start seeing this happen more and more in areas like Indy as whites and Hispanics mix more. There is some mixing with Hispanics and blacks but not nearly he mixing going on with whites.
Going back to timing those who arrived prior to 1980 tend to be more affluent because the 1980s and 1990s were a great time to build wealth. It has been much harder for more recent arrivals due to timing but also the crappy economic environment for all of us. The same could be said as it is harder for those born later, regardless of where they are from. Also, no comparison between high paying auto manufacturing jobs of 1970s and 1980s and $10 to $15 an hour warehouse jobs today mixed in with some light manufacturing.
I know it was much easier for my parents to accumulate wealth than it will be for my generation. American households actually peaked in 1964 and have been in decline since. The only reason incomes went up since then was women going into the work force. Latchkey kids used to be a thing of shame and now it is the norm. Both my wife and I plan on working after we have kids. Just tonight my wife commented that she had a cousin who is married with 3 kids and whose husband was the sole breadwinner making 50k per year and she didn't see how they could pay their bills.
That is true but I believe what the poster was referring to was the fact that the entire metro has seen a 4-5% reduction in the number of African Americans. Many might be moving from city to suburbs, but the region as a whole is losing them because many have decided to move elsewhere.
I don't buy the racism argument at all though. Why? Because non-Hispanic white population is has also declined in the metro 4-5% from 2000 to 2010.
I didn't say they were leaving due to racism. I merely stated that they were leaving.
I would not be surprised to start seeing this happen more and more in areas like Indy as whites and Hispanics mix more. There is some mixing with Hispanics and blacks but not nearly the mixing going on with whites.
Caribbean hispanics and Blacks have been mixing for generations. FWIW, Mexicans aren't the only hispanic group in America. Here is food for thought: Over half the population in Brazil would be considered Black if they were born in the United States because of the "One Drop Rule". On the flipside if I was born in Brazil I would be considered white but in America I'm black.
Definitely a lot of Brazilians with African ancestry. I think this speaks to anti black sentiment held by many in Brazil where here is a big stigma to being black, much greater than in the US.
There is a lot of mixing with Caribbean Hispanics. Many puerto Ricans have some African ancestry, they many prefer to call themselves Hispanic. There is some mixing between blacks and Mexicans but not much. Most of the Dominicans I have met are black with a smaller Hispanic mix. Basically, our definition of Hispanic is very broad, perhaps too broad.
I don't see why my wife , who is over 50 percent Aztec ancestry is considerd the same as 100 percent German Argentinian with blond hair and blue eyes.
Still, not a whole lot of mixing between blacks and Mexicans. It is much more common with Caribbean Hispanics, many of whom already have some African ancestry (thou many do not acknowledge it choosing to solely identify themselves as Hispanic).
Being fluent in Spanish I was shocked with some of the anti lack sentiments of my Mexican renters in Humboldt Park. Very similar to some the things I have heard from the likes of blue collar whites in Beech Grove. Not sure if they are more racist than the yuppie I work with just less censored.
My explanation for this is that poor Hispanics are forced economically to live next to poor blacks and experience much of the worst of poor black inner city culture including rampant drug use, welfare and crime and absent fathers.
I don't see a lot of puerto Ricans or Brazilians in Indianapolis. Just like Chicago most of the Hispanics in Indy are Mexican, though we do have sizable Puerto Rican population in Chicago. Chicago has Dominicans, Brazilians Colombians and Venezuelans (many of those I have met have African ancestry) but these groups are outnumbered by Mexican and other Cental Americans. It is obviously easier to get here by car than by boat or plane.
Dyadic,
Getting back to white flight. Have you ever seen a neighborhood whose black percentage has gone up whose schools have gotten better? Even Olympia Fields black majority neighborhood south of Chicago with average income on par with Carmel has schools that are crap and getting worse. Perhaps there are some neighborhoods in Atlanta or DC area but I can't cite any. Why is it that black neighborhoods have crappy schools even when you account for income and education, much worse than white and Hispanic neighborhoods?
The answer? Two parent households, something lacking in black population where 78 percent are now born out of wedlock.
One of my teacher friends in Chicago transferred from North Lawndale (all black) to Little Village (all Hispanic) and noted the biggest difference at parent teacher conferences. Few if any of the black parents showed up but she was swamped with Hispanic parents who were so dedicated that they worked with a translator to speak with their English speaking teacher. Both neighborhoods are poor and the parents lack education but I would much rather invest my time and energy helping those who give a crap about their kids and their future. Not much hope for people who are not even willing to show up for their kids. CPS and IPS are no different. So long as blacks are not willing to step up for their kids not much hope for the next generation.
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I am from Indiana
