Why pay a premium to live in Carmel vs Fishers? (Indianapolis: rent, houses)
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One reason is the schools. Since Carmel refused to break up their high school, they have a huge number of upper tier athletes to choose from. Thus, the school not only ranks well in academics, but also athletics. For parents whose kids are really into a certain sport and seems to be a top contender, that could be a bigger draw than Fishers, which is basically served by two high schools (Hamilton SE and Fishers).
Others have pointed out how Carmel actually has core commercial area. Fishers is trying to replicate this. Also, as Hamilton County grew, Carmel was straight up Meridian St./US 31 from the downtown Indy job locations. The drive to Fishers usually is east on I-70, then wrap around I-465, then I-69. So basically, because Carmel was just closer to where a lot of people worked in Marion County, I think it just got the benefit of being the first place people moved to.
Traditionally, Carmel was considered a better, more affluent suburb. The problem is that both Carmel and Fishers have both pushed high density growth to raise tax revenue to compensate for overspending. The city now has many mixed use, large apartment complexes. With this, the city now experiences crime and congestion. Recent reports of armed robbery, an unexplained shooting, and many other crimes such as package stealing were unheard of just several years ago. Better options in the same area are Westfield and Noblesville as they are doing better at keeping growth in check.
Good suburbs are really an issue of size. What is the population of Beverly Hills? Around 34k. Highland Park, IL is about 30k. Both Carmel and Fishers are both around 100 thousand people and that is a lot harder to manage especially when you are over a billion in debt such as the city of Carmel.
Traditionally, Carmel was considered a better, more affluent suburb. The problem is that both Carmel and Fishers have both pushed high density growth to raise tax revenue to compensate for overspending. The city now has many mixed use, large apartment complexes. With this, the city now experiences crime and congestion. Recent reports of armed robbery, an unexplained shooting, and many other crimes such as package stealing were unheard of just several years ago. Better options in the same area are Westfield and Noblesville as they are doing better at keeping growth in check.
...especially when you are over a billion in debt such as the city of Carmel.
Serious crime in Carmel and Fishers is almost entirely committed by people not from the area, or criminals who drift from couch to couch between friends and family and might just be a temporary resident. Also, Carmel and Fishers have had their share of armed robberies going back more than "several years ago." The frequency has went up, but so has the overall metro population, including that which is more likely to engage in criminal activity. As an example, a trio of women from Indianapolis drove all the way up to Kokomo to go on a flash shoplifting spree not that long ago.
Carmel's debt load is no more of an issue than Everywhere and Anywhere, IL. In fact, there have been people on this forum who've said that they picked the Chicago area because of the amount of higher paying job opportunities. Then they turn around and say that if they were really taxed at a level needed to pay all those upper five figure and six figure for-life pensions for retired public sector workers, they'd move away ASAP. Like him or not, Brainard might have actually been right to put the city into massive debt. Look at Biden's plan to bailout the states and municipalities with their pension debt. If massive debt loads are good for pensions, why isn't it OK for parks, water parks, and other amenities?
I've always been more socially liberal, but very fiscally conservative, but now one of our major political parties wants to bailout certain states so those states can make a subset of their population millionaires in retirement. Given that, I'm thinking states like Indiana and municipalities within should start going on rapid spending sprees. That or Indiana should substantially increase their public pension payouts and backdate such payouts back a decade. That would likely pay a lot of people in this state $75K-$100K upfront for the backdated payment. Then, Indiana can declare they need a federal bailout as well.
If you are smart with money, Brownsburg is best bang for your buck. Top notch schools, 30 min to downtown, few miles from Eagle Creek and becoming extremely diverse.
If you are smart with money, Brownsburg is best bang for your buck. Top notch schools, 30 min to downtown, few miles from Eagle Creek and becoming extremely diverse.
I live in Brownsburg and we love it! I agree with everything you said. However, the OP is a single guy so unless he plans to rent at Union Green or The Arbuckle right down town I'm not sure if Brownsburg will have as many of the amenities that he probably desires. The Brownsburg downtown, compared to most other suburbs of Indy downtowns, is lacking in any sort of major restaurant scene or walkability factor compared to those others. There are 2 restaurants and the Kroger is less than a mile away, but that's still quite a ways to walk to carry groceries back. Don't get me wrong they are trying to remedy that and the area around Arbuckle Acres is great in warm months with access to those few restaurants, farmer's market, concerts and other park activities, but again compared to most northside suburbs or western/southern towns like Plainfield or Greenwood it is severely lacking.
I do agree that you seem to get a lot more home for your money. Part of that is paying for the Carmel amenities and address. As others pointed out Carmel has bigger lots so that will influence prices as well. Finally, most are newer homes if they are in the upper range of price versus Carmel homes are typically older and more established and that appeals to some homebuyers. Also for a single guy at this point schools won't be as much of an issue outside of resale, I would imagine, and pretty much any suburb you can't go wrong school wise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indy_317
One reason is the schools. Since Carmel refused to break up their high school, they have a huge number of upper tier athletes to choose from. Thus, the school not only ranks well in academics, but also athletics. For parents whose kids are really into a certain sport and seems to be a top contender, that could be a bigger draw than Fishers, which is basically served by two high schools (Hamilton SE and Fishers).
I agree to an extent. They do rank highly in sports, their girls have won something like 30 straight swimming titles! Their Girls Cross Country team won 7 in a row from 2011-2017 and again this year. Their Boys Cross Country has been 1st or 2nd pretty much the last 9 years including winning this year. Their football and basketball are generally in discussion for potentially winning state.
Some of that is size as you mentioned, having that many athletes to pull from obviously helps and then that talent pushing each other every day makes them all better. I think some of that success is affluency too starting them younger than other districts do for some of those sports. Their bands are very highly rated as well so don't discount how their Marching Band, Jazz, and Orchestras pull in families that want their children in the Arts as much as sports. If it was just size alone though Warren Central, Ben Davis and Merrillville (I think the 3 next biggest schools in the state of Indiana after Carmel) would be dominant in all sports and band as well, not just football and basketball.
So I agree with you on that point, but I do know people who purposely avoided Carmel when buying a home even if their son/daughter was really talented in those sports or bands, because they knew they wouldn't have a shot at playing Varsity/1st chair as early as they might at another school like Fishers or Zionsville. Getting into semantics of if that's the right lesson to teach your child, but I think it is a factor. Some people prefer the smaller school feel (in comparison to a Carmel) and opportunity for their child to at least have a shot at playing and playing early to sitting their turn and maybe not even getting it.
My cousins went to Carmel schools and I know my Aunt and Uncle never regretted it. My cousins loved their experience, but they also show an example of what I mean. Both were very musically talented and 1st chair from day 1 in the bands so I'm sure that helped them enjoy their experience all the more. However 1 of them also ran Cross Country. By his senior year, he was their 12th-15th runner overall depending on the meet (not quite varsity but very close). At most other schools around the state, that would definitely put him in that schools' Top 7/Varsity and in many cases their number 1 runner. He had pretty good times, not good enough for D1, but definitely could have seen some D2 interest. Some D3 reached out to him and were surprised more D2 and other colleges weren't recruiting him. However, because he ran almost all JV except for 1 or 2 meets there weren't really any times on him for those coaches to see because most college coaches aren't going to look at the JV results. He's great with the path he chose and didn't choose to run in college (band payed the way instead). I'm not saying he would have been some phenomenal runner/athlete at the collegiate level by any means, but at another school I think he would have gotten at least more recruiting attention, even if just from D3/NAIA schools. I know/think some parents if they think their child could be a good athlete, but maybe not exceptional are looking at where their child can still get those same experiences and starting to look more at other communities/schools. Think of how many people come to Indy area for work from small town < 5,000 people and all of a sudden the school is bigger than their town was. For some that's scary, but they want the best education, home, commute for their family so they look at these communities and some decide that Carmel is too big and avoid it.
I ended up buying in fishers close to Castleton/Indy and the Carmel city lines and love it. There is so much new construction in Fishers. They have a great new downtown area with nice bars and restaurants and condos going up. They have a new trail like the moon. Its starting to look like Carmel. I think you get more for your money in Fishers than anywhere. Not house size more for your money but what the city and location offers as a whole and proximity to amenities and shopping and dining.
I live in Brownsburg and we love it! I agree with everything you said. However, the OP is a single guy so unless he plans to rent at Union Green or The Arbuckle right down town I'm not sure if Brownsburg will have as many of the amenities that he probably desires. The Brownsburg downtown, compared to most other suburbs of Indy downtowns, is lacking in any sort of major restaurant scene or walkability factor compared to those others. There are 2 restaurants and the Kroger is less than a mile away, but that's still quite a ways to walk to carry groceries back. Don't get me wrong they are trying to remedy that and the area around Arbuckle Acres is great in warm months with access to those few restaurants, farmer's market, concerts and other park activities, but again compared to most northside suburbs or western/southern towns like Plainfield or Greenwood it is severely lacking.
I do agree that you seem to get a lot more home for your money. Part of that is paying for the Carmel amenities and address. As others pointed out Carmel has bigger lots so that will influence prices as well. Finally, most are newer homes if they are in the upper range of price versus Carmel homes are typically older and more established and that appeals to some homebuyers. Also for a single guy at this point schools won't be as much of an issue outside of resale, I would imagine, and pretty much any suburb you can't go wrong school wise.
I agree to an extent. They do rank highly in sports, their girls have won something like 30 straight swimming titles! Their Girls Cross Country team won 7 in a row from 2011-2017 and again this year. Their Boys Cross Country has been 1st or 2nd pretty much the last 9 years including winning this year. Their football and basketball are generally in discussion for potentially winning state.
Some of that is size as you mentioned, having that many athletes to pull from obviously helps and then that talent pushing each other every day makes them all better. I think some of that success is affluency too starting them younger than other districts do for some of those sports. Their bands are very highly rated as well so don't discount how their Marching Band, Jazz, and Orchestras pull in families that want their children in the Arts as much as sports. If it was just size alone though Warren Central, Ben Davis and Merrillville (I think the 3 next biggest schools in the state of Indiana after Carmel) would be dominant in all sports and band as well, not just football and basketball.
So I agree with you on that point, but I do know people who purposely avoided Carmel when buying a home even if their son/daughter was really talented in those sports or bands, because they knew they wouldn't have a shot at playing Varsity/1st chair as early as they might at another school like Fishers or Zionsville. Getting into semantics of if that's the right lesson to teach your child, but I think it is a factor. Some people prefer the smaller school feel (in comparison to a Carmel) and opportunity for their child to at least have a shot at playing and playing early to sitting their turn and maybe not even getting it.
My cousins went to Carmel schools and I know my Aunt and Uncle never regretted it. My cousins loved their experience, but they also show an example of what I mean. Both were very musically talented and 1st chair from day 1 in the bands so I'm sure that helped them enjoy their experience all the more. However 1 of them also ran Cross Country. By his senior year, he was their 12th-15th runner overall depending on the meet (not quite varsity but very close). At most other schools around the state, that would definitely put him in that schools' Top 7/Varsity and in many cases their number 1 runner. He had pretty good times, not good enough for D1, but definitely could have seen some D2 interest. Some D3 reached out to him and were surprised more D2 and other colleges weren't recruiting him. However, because he ran almost all JV except for 1 or 2 meets there weren't really any times on him for those coaches to see because most college coaches aren't going to look at the JV results. He's great with the path he chose and didn't choose to run in college (band payed the way instead). I'm not saying he would have been some phenomenal runner/athlete at the collegiate level by any means, but at another school I think he would have gotten at least more recruiting attention, even if just from D3/NAIA schools. I know/think some parents if they think their child could be a good athlete, but maybe not exceptional are looking at where their child can still get those same experiences and starting to look more at other communities/schools. Think of how many people come to Indy area for work from small town < 5,000 people and all of a sudden the school is bigger than their town was. For some that's scary, but they want the best education, home, commute for their family so they look at these communities and some decide that Carmel is too big and avoid it.
I've never understood why going to a massive school is better for athletics. Unless you are in the top %1 of athletes you don't get on a team or to play. I'd much rather go to a smaller school where there is less competition and I have a chance to play and be on a team(s).
I've never understood why going to a massive school is better for athletics. Unless you are in the top %1 of athletes you don't get on a team or to play. I'd much rather go to a smaller school where there is less competition and I have a chance to play and be on a team(s).
I think that's exactly why Fishers and other towns/cities in Hamilton County started to expand and take off. People realized they could take their child to the next district over, get many of the same amenities as Carmel, but their child has a chance to play versus riding the bench, and in some cases pay less for their home to do it.
I had not been through Fishers downtown in many years until about 2 months ago. I will say they have made HUGE progress to reshaping their downtown to a place that looks inviting, fun and has lots of different things to do beyond just eating. Helps to have IKEA and Top Golf right around the corner. I'm still not sold on all the traffic in that area, especially around 69, but I'm sure most of the day/time it's manageable.
I live in Brownsburg and we love it! I agree with everything you said. However, the OP is a single guy so unless he plans to rent at Union Green or The Arbuckle right down town I'm not sure if Brownsburg will have as many of the amenities that he probably desires. The Brownsburg downtown, compared to most other suburbs of Indy downtowns, is lacking in any sort of major restaurant scene or walkability factor compared to those others. There are 2 restaurants and the Kroger is less than a mile away, but that's still quite a ways to walk to carry groceries back. Don't get me wrong they are trying to remedy that and the area around Arbuckle Acres is great in warm months with access to those few restaurants, farmer's market, concerts and other park activities, but again compared to most northside suburbs or western/southern towns like Plainfield or Greenwood it is severely lacking.
I do agree that you seem to get a lot more home for your money. Part of that is paying for the Carmel amenities and address. As others pointed out Carmel has bigger lots so that will influence prices as well. Finally, most are newer homes if they are in the upper range of price versus Carmel homes are typically older and more established and that appeals to some homebuyers. Also for a single guy at this point schools won't be as much of an issue outside of resale, I would imagine, and pretty much any suburb you can't go wrong school wise.
I agree to an extent. They do rank highly in sports, their girls have won something like 30 straight swimming titles! Their Girls Cross Country team won 7 in a row from 2011-2017 and again this year. Their Boys Cross Country has been 1st or 2nd pretty much the last 9 years including winning this year. Their football and basketball are generally in discussion for potentially winning state.
Some of that is size as you mentioned, having that many athletes to pull from obviously helps and then that talent pushing each other every day makes them all better. I think some of that success is affluency too starting them younger than other districts do for some of those sports. Their bands are very highly rated as well so don't discount how their Marching Band, Jazz, and Orchestras pull in families that want their children in the Arts as much as sports. If it was just size alone though Warren Central, Ben Davis and Merrillville (I think the 3 next biggest schools in the state of Indiana after Carmel) would be dominant in all sports and band as well, not just football and basketball.
So I agree with you on that point, but I do know people who purposely avoided Carmel when buying a home even if their son/daughter was really talented in those sports or bands, because they knew they wouldn't have a shot at playing Varsity/1st chair as early as they might at another school like Fishers or Zionsville. Getting into semantics of if that's the right lesson to teach your child, but I think it is a factor. Some people prefer the smaller school feel (in comparison to a Carmel) and opportunity for their child to at least have a shot at playing and playing early to sitting their turn and maybe not even getting it.
My cousins went to Carmel schools and I know my Aunt and Uncle never regretted it. My cousins loved their experience, but they also show an example of what I mean. Both were very musically talented and 1st chair from day 1 in the bands so I'm sure that helped them enjoy their experience all the more. However 1 of them also ran Cross Country. By his senior year, he was their 12th-15th runner overall depending on the meet (not quite varsity but very close). At most other schools around the state, that would definitely put him in that schools' Top 7/Varsity and in many cases their number 1 runner. He had pretty good times, not good enough for D1, but definitely could have seen some D2 interest. Some D3 reached out to him and were surprised more D2 and other colleges weren't recruiting him. However, because he ran almost all JV except for 1 or 2 meets there weren't really any times on him for those coaches to see because most college coaches aren't going to look at the JV results. He's great with the path he chose and didn't choose to run in college (band payed the way instead). I'm not saying he would have been some phenomenal runner/athlete at the collegiate level by any means, but at another school I think he would have gotten at least more recruiting attention, even if just from D3/NAIA schools. I know/think some parents if they think their child could be a good athlete, but maybe not exceptional are looking at where their child can still get those same experiences and starting to look more at other communities/schools. Think of how many people come to Indy area for work from small town < 5,000 people and all of a sudden the school is bigger than their town was. For some that's scary, but they want the best education, home, commute for their family so they look at these communities and some decide that Carmel is too big and avoid it.
Merrillville continues to shrink and is in major trouble as the enrollment in the elementary schools is really small. It might be 5A next year in football as it only has 2015 students or so. The biggest schools in the state are Carmel, BD, Warren, North Central, Fishers, Penn, Pike, HSE, Lake Central, Avon, and Noblesville. All have over 3000 students.
I ended up buying in fishers close to Castleton/Indy and the Carmel city lines and love it. There is so much new construction in Fishers. They have a great new downtown area with nice bars and restaurants and condos going up. They have a new trail like the moon. Its starting to look like Carmel. I think you get more for your money in Fishers than anywhere. Not house size more for your money but what the city and location offers as a whole and proximity to amenities and shopping and dining.
This sounds interesting! Do you (or anyone) have an opinion about the area of Fishers sort of near Geist Elementary School (E 104th and Olio Rd), so the part of Fishers south/east of the reservoir heading out toward Fortville? Pros/cons?
How does the reservoir impact the area? Like, during summer, are there a lot of boaters clogging up the roads making it hard to get to the grocery store, for instance (just making that up as an example of something that would be a concern for me)?
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