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I think the city needs to lobby the legislature to get a casino permit for Union Station. The city had some good ideas in the 80's with Union station but it was way ahead of its time. Put a casino in there, a nightclub or two and some high end gift shops. I dont think you'd have a problem finding a developer as it is in a great location and would add significantly to the tax base of the city.
It would be great for our convention business. You have to wonder how many conventions we lose to cities with casinos.
Last edited by restorationconsultant; 01-31-2009 at 12:11 PM..
Reason: more comment
Indianapolis needs about 10,000 more people living downtown to give it the density necessary to create the kind of "real city" environment people seem to want. Adding tourist attractions is only going to attract tourists, and that's just not a reliable way to build anything. Packed on the weekends and dead during the week.
A casino in Union Station would be a good idea, though.
I am firmly against casinos in downtowns of cities. What has the casino done for downtown Detroit in Greektown? Indy, like many midsized cities, needs to focus on small, organic projects, something it is doing fairly well. 30 units here, a 5 story apartment building there, and all of the sudden you get density and street life. Downtown Indy is very convention oriented as it is now, and that is not such a bad thing. What downtown Indy needs most is more non chain restaurants and more street facing retail. As successful as Circle Center is, I don't like the idea of enclosed malls downtown. Imagine if all the stores in Circle Center lined up on Meridan and its cross streets. Or maybe all the way down Mass Ave to the Coke plant, which could be turned into a permanant farmers market with street facing, hispter retailers like Urban Outfitters.
I am firmly against casinos in downtowns of cities. What has the casino done for downtown Detroit in Greektown? Indy, like many midsized cities, needs to focus on small, organic projects, something it is doing fairly well. 30 units here, a 5 story apartment building there, and all of the sudden you get density and street life. Downtown Indy is very convention oriented as it is now, and that is not such a bad thing. What downtown Indy needs most is more non chain restaurants and more street facing retail. As successful as Circle Center is, I don't like the idea of enclosed malls downtown. Imagine if all the stores in Circle Center lined up on Meridan and its cross streets. Or maybe all the way down Mass Ave to the Coke plant, which could be turned into a permanant farmers market with street facing, hispter retailers like Urban Outfitters.
I'm not sure anything could help Detroit, the way that city has fallen apart over the last few decades, but you make a good point. Casinos aren't the answer to everything, certainly. But one thing a casino would do is attract people who live in Indiana or close by who like to make special trips to go gambling. When you can go to a "boat" that's out in the middle of nowhere and see the parking lot filled and tons of people around at all times of the year, it's not hard to see that having a casino in downtown Indianapolis could probably attract a lot of those people. But it wouldn't be a huge factor one way or the other.
This article is a good read: Indianapolis Star Union Station Online Forum Posting (http://www.urbanophile.com/arenn/letters/union-station01.html - broken link)
I can't recall where I ran across the link, and obviously some of the info is out of date because it was written in 1996, but I agree with the central point, which is that without significantly increasing the population density downtown Indianapolis is never going to break through to that "next level" of having a walkable, vital urban core. Indianapolis' Center Township has half the population it had in 1950. Half. As much as people claim that Indianapolis is growing, it's undeniable that its center has declined for decades, and that many people who now promote the tourist-oriented convention business have little idea what has been lost. From the article: "Along historic Indiana Ave. alone, there were once 33 restaurants, 33 saloons, 26 grocery stores, 17 barber shops, 16 tailors, 14 shoemakers and 13 dry good stores." And on top of that, this street played host to a thriving jazz scene that many people don't realize ever existed. What's there now? A strip mall out by Wishard that looks like it could be in Avon, and a host of parking lots and generic office buildings.
Without having people to frequent those street-facing retail shops and locally-owned restaurants they'll just go under. Mass Ave has been promoted for decades, and although it's not as dead as it was in '96 when the article was written, some of what the author says still rings true, and to the extent it's inaccurate it's because there is now a lot more housing in this area than there was a decade ago.
One poster here made some comments to the OP to the effect that Indy isn't interested in making downtown fun for young people, that they're not worth attracting because they don't have any money, and that he should be satisfied with the museums, libraries, and open spaces that were all pretty much here back in the 1980s, when most people agree Indy's downtown was dead. This attitude mystifies me. Take a suburban family of four and assume they go downtown every single weekend, have a meal, and buy something in a store. A single person living downtown is almost certainly going to buy more than four meals and make more than four purchases in a week. And he'll be grabbing some food on a Tuesday night when the visitors are gone. This is the key. Locally owned businesses often lack the capital to remodel existing downtown space and stay open all week in the hopes of having a good weekend crowd, and they don't have the name recognition that draws in the insurance adjusters from Iowa who come here for a convention. And 20-somethings, although they often have quite a bit of disposable income, generally don't have the credit or the inclination to buy a $400,000 condo. Young people are living in Broad Ripple or Castleton, and increasingly in Carmel and the Keystone at the Crossing area, and these areas are doing fine. I don't think that's a coincidence.
Sorry to go on so long but I think the convention-centric approach has serious shortcomings that people don't seem to recognize, and it's turning our downtown into a 'tourist-only' area that doesn't compete well with other parts of town. I live ten minutes away and rarely go downtown in the evening for anything other than a sporting event, a show, or an occasional meal at one of the nicer restaurants. When I meet people out for a drink after work, go to an independent bookstore, or go shopping for a unique gift it's generally on the north side, closer to where we live. And if I'm not going downtown because it's not worth the drive, how can we expect people who live in Carmel or Avon to want to go there?
Sorry to go on so long but I think the convention-centric approach has serious shortcomings that people don't seem to recognize, and it's turning our downtown into a 'tourist-only' area that doesn't compete well with other parts of town. I live ten minutes away and rarely go downtown in the evening for anything other than a sporting event, a show, or an occasional meal at one of the nicer restaurants. When I meet people out for a drink after work, go to an independent bookstore, or go shopping for a unique gift it's generally on the north side, closer to where we live. And if I'm not going downtown because it's not worth the drive, how can we expect people who live in Carmel or Avon to want to go there?
Perhaps I am oversimplifying the problem, or am way off; but I don't think it uncommon for people on the northside to stay on the northside (or other respective sides of town). When I lived on the northside, I think I went downtown maybe three times for any reason unrelated to sports or theater. Many of the things I love doing downtown, I can generally do in Broad Ripple or 86th Street without making the haul down Michigan Road or Meridian Street.
I don't think Indy should focus on attracting the Carmelites downtown, the focus needs to be on continuing to develop the residential base. Neighborhoods in and around the core of downtown need to continue developing. We need IPS to be a stronger district to keep people in Center Township. We need neighborhoods like Little Flower and Irvington to keep fighting, despite the isssues they face with the surrounding neighborhoods. We need the IndyEast plans to improve struggling areas along and north of East Washington, west of Rural. Bates-Hendricks needs to become more like Fountain Square, and Fountain Square needs to continue pushing forward with its own development. These things take time, and can not happen overnight. It won't and it is unreasonable to expect it too. But as people are moving downtown and into Center Township, then and only then can Indianapolis hope to have a truly great downtown that can compete with other great cities. I think it is great now for what it is; but what it is will never, EVER, compete with the Chicagos of the world. Which is ok; but in order to maintain and grow downtown as it is; residents need to live in and around the core.
Now that I rambled and went way off topic; I should get back on point. Which is really a sum of my ramble. People who live downtown will obviously frequent downtown businesses more often than people in Carmel. The most important thing is to get more people living in and near downtown. If you take care of that and the effect that would have on DT Indy; attracting Carmelites will take care of itself. Downtown serves its residents well, and it is much more active than a lot of similar cities. But if the rest of Center Township is rotting, and IPS is abysmal, what reason is there for young people to come here if they want to start a family? I love living in Fountain Square; but I am going to want to start a family some day. I certainly can not afford private schools, and IPS is not an option either right now. This is something that needs to be addressed if Indy hopes to make its core liveable for the long term. Some trains would be nice too.
I didn't mean to suggest the prime goal should be to get the Carmelites down there. I was just saying that all of the development that has taken place downtown hasn't done a whole lot to change it into a place that attracts people who already live somewhat close by. I agree the focus should be on building up population downtown and near-downtown. And if this occurs, it will tend to build the kind of atmosphere that makes downtown attractive to the locals. Of course we won't be Chicago, but in a sense we're not even where Indianapolis was back in the 50s, when north Washington Township was farmland.
I'm not sure anything could help Detroit, the way that city has fallen apart over the last few decades, but you make a good point. Casinos aren't the answer to everything, certainly. But one thing a casino would do is attract people who live in Indiana or close by who like to make special trips to go gambling. When you can go to a "boat" that's out in the middle of nowhere and see the parking lot filled and tons of people around at all times of the year, it's not hard to see that having a casino in downtown Indianapolis could probably attract a lot of those people. But it wouldn't be a huge factor one way or the other.
This article is a good read: Indianapolis Star Union Station Online Forum Posting (http://www.urbanophile.com/arenn/letters/union-station01.html - broken link)
I can't recall where I ran across the link, and obviously some of the info is out of date because it was written in 1996, but I agree with the central point, which is that without significantly increasing the population density downtown Indianapolis is never going to break through to that "next level" of having a walkable, vital urban core. Indianapolis' Center Township has half the population it had in 1950. Half. As much as people claim that Indianapolis is growing, it's undeniable that its center has declined for decades, and that many people who now promote the tourist-oriented convention business have little idea what has been lost. From the article: "Along historic Indiana Ave. alone, there were once 33 restaurants, 33 saloons, 26 grocery stores, 17 barber shops, 16 tailors, 14 shoemakers and 13 dry good stores." And on top of that, this street played host to a thriving jazz scene that many people don't realize ever existed. What's there now? A strip mall out by Wishard that looks like it could be in Avon, and a host of parking lots and generic office buildings.
Without having people to frequent those street-facing retail shops and locally-owned restaurants they'll just go under. Mass Ave has been promoted for decades, and although it's not as dead as it was in '96 when the article was written, some of what the author says still rings true, and to the extent it's inaccurate it's because there is now a lot more housing in this area than there was a decade ago.
One poster here made some comments to the OP to the effect that Indy isn't interested in making downtown fun for young people, that they're not worth attracting because they don't have any money, and that he should be satisfied with the museums, libraries, and open spaces that were all pretty much here back in the 1980s, when most people agree Indy's downtown was dead. This attitude mystifies me. Take a suburban family of four and assume they go downtown every single weekend, have a meal, and buy something in a store. A single person living downtown is almost certainly going to buy more than four meals and make more than four purchases in a week. And he'll be grabbing some food on a Tuesday night when the visitors are gone. This is the key. Locally owned businesses often lack the capital to remodel existing downtown space and stay open all week in the hopes of having a good weekend crowd, and they don't have the name recognition that draws in the insurance adjusters from Iowa who come here for a convention. And 20-somethings, although they often have quite a bit of disposable income, generally don't have the credit or the inclination to buy a $400,000 condo. Young people are living in Broad Ripple or Castleton, and increasingly in Carmel and the Keystone at the Crossing area, and these areas are doing fine. I don't think that's a coincidence.
Sorry to go on so long but I think the convention-centric approach has serious shortcomings that people don't seem to recognize, and it's turning our downtown into a 'tourist-only' area that doesn't compete well with other parts of town. I live ten minutes away and rarely go downtown in the evening for anything other than a sporting event, a show, or an occasional meal at one of the nicer restaurants. When I meet people out for a drink after work, go to an independent bookstore, or go shopping for a unique gift it's generally on the north side, closer to where we live. And if I'm not going downtown because it's not worth the drive, how can we expect people who live in Carmel or Avon to want to go there?
I know very well. Louisville's suburb has the largest boat in Indiana and its full of Marion and Hamilton County plates. Same with the two big boys in the Cincy burbs. But still, I don't think this is doing much if anything for Cincy or Louisville. I really don't think Indy needs casinos in its downtown. I think one out at Speedway might work, but something about downtown casinos brings the wrong element, and Indy has such a nice, safe, clean downtown right now.
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