Transit options make District more affordable than suburbs

[Colts]

Originally Posted by Ravekid

I am reluctant to continue to give more and more of my dollars to government.

So are most people. Then again, most people are rational enough to know that taxes exist to provide the services some of us take for granted.

Using your logic, I should never pay for anything that doesn't directly benefit me. That means property taxes (schools, fire, police), SSI (it won't be around when I live to that age), sales tax (I don't live in certain states), etc...you see what I'm getting at.

Since you are obviously anti-tax, there's nothing that I can say to you. You probably wouldn't want to hear my thoughts on the new stadium--let's just say that I am glad it was built.

I'm curious what your stance on this would be like in 20 years, when gas is ridiculously expensive and people have repopulated the central city. Indy would probably be the last major city in the country to have some kind of rapid transit, lol.

[Ravekid]

Originally Posted by Colts

Since you are obviously anti-tax, there's nothing that I can say to you. You probably wouldn't want to hear my thoughts on the new stadium--let's just say that I am glad it was built.

With a name like "Colts," I can see why you are glad money is taken from others to benefit yourself. When I worked in higher education, I didn't support the constant hikes in tuition. Maybe I should have, as I was getting 1-3% raises every year, but then again I am not for screwing over others just so I can personally benefit.

Originally Posted by Colts

I'm curious what your stance on this would be like in 20 years, when gas is ridiculously expensive and people have repopulated the central city. Indy would probably be the last major city in the country to have some kind of rapid transit, lol.

Again, this isn't an all or nothing idea. I have already said that I would support a small tax to expand the bus service. The problem is that folks dream big, and others want big because big = MONEY!! When looking at anything, follow the money. The same old contractors will be the ones raking in the dough on this project. As always a very small minority will get ultra rich, a somewhat larger % will be employed for a certain number of years. Basically, instead of paying people welfare, we steal more money from others so folks can make a little more than they would on welfare and work a labor job. A pretty good gig if your the one getting the taxpayer subsidized job, not such a good deal if your paying for it and receiving nothing.

Thankfully an article in our local Hancock Co. paper has many folks leaning against the idea. The idea doesn't really benefit Hancock Co. at all. No bus lines, no rail service from what the article said. Only toll lanes on I-70 and a bus to Mt. Comfort Rd. So they want everyone in Hancock Co. to pay a tax so they can turn around and pay to use toll roads or ride a bus. Talk about double taxation. Anyways, a good portion of the traffic that is coming to Mt. Comfort Rd. to I-70 is coming from SE Hamilton County. My fear is that the focus on this is rail, rail, rail...with highway building and expanded bus service coming in last. If the rail service is such a hit, and all those folks in and around Fishers use the rail, then traffic at some of these other interstates go way down. What if they change their mind then? We could have entire counties getting told: "Well, we really don't need to expand your highways." or "We no longer plan to send an express bus to your area, as we don't have the money given the rail costs." Then these citizens are basically paying for what was planned for all along: A fancy rail line that benefits Indy, Hamilton County, and Johnson County.

[WDCJoe]

Originally Posted by Ravekid

Baltimore is about ready to layoff 600 employees. Obviously the droves of people aren't spending any money, or enough money. This is exactly what Barf Peterson lied about in front of a TV camera prior to his ejection as mayor. He said there and said that the building of Lucas Oil and the expanded convention center would mean no budget problems for Indy. He said it, point blank. It was something like 'If we build these facilities, we wouldn't have these issues.' when asked about the budget.



It's truly amazing how much politicians will steal from other people when they see _their_ own demise nearing. Why not use Detroit as a shining example? They have a rail line and recently raised taxes for a stadium. Is Detroit a shining example of a great city??

LOL so you want to use Detroit? That’s funny because their system goes no where. Detroit never got a system off the ground that moves any meaningful number of people. It’s a system that services a short number of stops downtown, so no they cant be used as an example as their system pales in comparison when one brings up Pittsburgh, Baltimore, or Salt Lake City.

Additionally you stated that the city of Baltimore is laying off people. Well that goes back to the budget issues that the state of Maryland is having. Due to the latest economic downturn, the number of millionaires decreased by an appreciable amount within the state. That in turn reduced taxable returns. That situation has nothing to do with social services, transportation, or Sports stadiums, but the overall state of the US economy. Quick money based of mortgage greed did that, not light rail.

[chalcedony]

Originally Posted by Ravekid

Thankfully an article in our local Hancock Co. paper has many folks leaning against the idea. The idea doesn't really benefit Hancock Co. at all.

I would hope that it has occurred to the organizing powers of this initiative that some counties are going to benefit disproportionately from IndyConnect. Hancock is by far the least developed of the four major suburban counties, with the lowest population. It should, in turn, get the smallest bus service. However, I'd also agree that it should be taxed the least.

Originally Posted by Ravekid

My fear is that the focus on this is rail, rail, rail...with highway building and expanded bus service coming in last. If the rail service is such a hit, and all those folks in and around Fishers use the rail, then traffic at some of these other interstates go way down. What if they change their mind then? We could have entire counties getting told: "Well, we really don't need to expand your highways." or "We no longer plan to send an express bus to your area, as we don't have the money given the rail costs."

Highway building SHOULD come in dead last. If I had my druthers, Marion County would have absolutely no more highway building or road widening--a total moratorium. Indy is filled with wide roads to create the illusion of reducing bottlenecks that fail to do precisely that because they only incentivize more people to drive. Road widening and highway building costs more money in terms of eminent domain (gobbles up tons of land) and a person whose front yard has just shrunk 40% because of speeding traffic gets the added burden of diminished property values for a noisy, dangerous, unappealing front yard. I know such a moratorium would be hugely unpopular among many, but think about the costs incurred by building or expanding roads and the damage it wreaks upon homeowners.

Buses are of course cheaper than rail to install, and they are much more flexible if a route needs to change. That is inescapable. But rail boasts extremely high visibility, the ability to supersede car-related traffic jams, and, if electrified, considerably lower emissions. A good transit network will have both and will devise a regional strategy to pay for it--I don't question that Marion County should pay the lion's share but keep in mind the Marion County folks are also paying the lion's share for harboring the vast majority of the region's poverty. Suburbs are in no way immune to poverty (see south side Chicago) which is why it's critical that the counties work together to make it as desirable and well-functioning of a region as a whole. Places don't compete just by being cheap to live, because plenty of other cities can make that same promise. Indy needs significant improvements on its infrastructure (roads, sidewalks, sewers, mass transit) or it WILL lose business to the neighboring cities that also offer cheap housing but couple it with desirable, attractive, accessible places to live.

[Colts]

Originally Posted by Ravekid

With a name like "Colts," I can see why you are glad money is taken from others to benefit yourself.

What the hell does my username on an online forum have to do with my thoughts on spending?

Your logic is straight-up mind boggling and honestly, this almost doesn't even warrant a response.

When I worked in higher education, I didn't support the constant hikes in tuition.[ Maybe I should have, as I was getting 1-3% raises every year, but then again I am not for screwing over others just so I can personally benefit.

That's your opinion. You perceive it to be that way. I don't. You act like the big bad government is out to get you or something. Please.

Implying that these types of projects are only here to "screw people over" is not only an extremely odd way of thinking, but unrealistic.

[Colts]

Originally Posted by chalcedony

Highway building SHOULD come in dead last. If I had my druthers, Marion County would have absolutely no more highway building or road widening--a total moratorium.

Completely agree, and same with Allen County.

We're talking about a shift in the paradigm. This cultural dynamic of ultra-spread out subdivisions, drive-thrus, and highways-galore simply cannot exist for much longer and the ramifactions from this lifestyle are going to hit us very hard...unless we do something now. Transit is only part of the puzzle, along with greatly decreased energy consumption, and urban reinvestment (densification).

The only people who can't see the obvious, tangible benefits of this are the people who choose not to see them: poltical extremeists who need to turn everything into a partisan battle. It is absolutely crippling this state AND this country and impeding us from ever acheiving any kind of real progress.

[wh15395]

Originally Posted by Colts

Completely agree, and same with Allen County.

I don't know if I agree with this. Maybe if you talked about what roads you specifically mean that would be true, but one example is S.R. 14 which was due for a widening long ago. I-69 also needed a widening through the city because it was getting really hard to pass, although there wasn't much congestion.

[Naptowner]

The current push for rail transit is nothing more than the good old Indy inferiority complex raising its head. There isn't a public rail system that comes close to paying for itself anywhere in the country, nor is there one that people generally ride willingly. It's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist in Indianapolis. Before we waste money on a light rail system that will look good but won't have much effect, we should improve our poor bus service. It's not sexy, but it's very useful to a lot of people who can't afford a car.

[edwardianlady]

I am heavily in favor of this plan any plan if it gets less cars off the road and into more public transportation options .I don't understand why train/bus is more available to people who can't or don't want to drive ? For the love of ...not everyone wants to drive ......I would love to able to take the train from my area into INDY all on a train . Do I think it will ever happen in my life time ? No,not unless cars are suddenly banned .