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Old 05-12-2019, 06:36 AM
 
1,688 posts, read 508,367 times
Reputation: 3962

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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Would you care to explain the concern you have with the way vaccine studies are done? Perhaps take a study and critique it for us?

People who are vaccinated for measles have a 97% chance of being immune. ...

Where have you read it? Care to share your source?

Yes immune compromised people are at greater risk of serious complications. They also cannot be vaccinated in many cases because the MMR contains live, though weakened viruses. That is why it is important to maintain high vaccination rates to sustain herd immunity so immunocompromised people have less risk of being exposed to the infection. However, perfectly healthy people can die from measles. One of them was author Roald Dahl's daughter Olivia.

https://www.roalddahlfans.com/dahls-...erous-illness/
Oh, I see Suzy - you are back!
Are you such an irrational fan of vaccines that you selectively pick up facts, denying/ ignoring others to just suit your point of view, which could be summarized “ vaccines are omnipresent, omnipotent and benevolent”?
And then you “ hunt” down every individual, who expresses a slight ambivalence, perhaps doubts, you attack every fact presented to you, but not with the fact, just your opinion or some story you heard.
Social and mass media hysteria does not help in so called current measles “ outbreak”
You don’t seem to argue against refugees and and an international travel!?
People die not only from measles but from listeria, salmonella, clostridia difficile, etc, etc.
Each of them preventable, but I don’t see you with the equipment checking every piece of meat or lettuce at the grocery.
People die- it is a statistical game, unfortunately.
I have no time, inclination or drive to get you to change your rigid mind by mimicking you in arguing incessantly regarding every shred of any evidence, fact, etc- you can do your own research- using your tenacity to overturn the facts you are presenting as infallible if you want to see other people’s positions- people are not all stupid with herd mentality. There are some thinking individuals out there..
Give you just 1 last example.
You just claimed measles vaccine 97% efficient.
It is not so based on a research and a resulting summary arguing for a “ individualized, genetics based new measles vaccine
To summarize 55 pages - even in immunized with 2 doses of vaccine up to 53% of population got measles, up to 10-20% won’t develop immunity due to genetic factors of an individual, there is substantial “ waning” of immunity in just a few years (7?)
And in order to eliminate the measles your favorite “ herd immunity” must be 96-98%. Current vaccine official efficiency is 94% in the lab!!!!
“.....Although effective, the current live-attenuated measles vaccines have limitations. Vaccine failure (i.e., the failure for the individual to either mount or sustain a protective immune response) occurs despite the receipt of two doses of vaccine [6–13,201]. Measles elimination has failed primarily due to failure to vaccinate, but also in part due to vaccine failure, allowing the accumulation of susceptible individuals and the occurrence of outbreaks when exposure occurs [9–11,14,15]. As a result, even in highly vaccinated populations, substantial proportions of those infected in an outbreak will have measles...

...The 1989–1991 US measles outbreaks clearly demonstrate this; 20–40% of the reported cases were previously immunized with one or two doses of vaccine [11], and this phenomenon continues (Table 1). In October 2011, a prolonged measles outbreak in Quebec resulted in more than 700 cases; one high school had 98 reported measles cases, of which 53% had received two doses of a measles-containing vaccine [13]...

Estimates of the immunogenicity of the current, live-attenuated measles vaccines vary substantially. Our laboratory found only 81% to be seropositive in a sample of 1490 school-aged children all having had a single dose of measles-containing vaccine received at 12 months or later in life; of the remaining 19% who were seronegative, one in five who received a second dose remained seronegative [11]. Various studies estimate anywhere from 2 to 10% of those vaccinated with two doses fail to develop protective humoral immunity [11,14,17,18], and those antibody levels wane over time, which can result in infection [17,19–21]. In our evaluation of 763 healthy school-aged children in Rochester (MN, USA), all previously vaccinated with two doses of MMR, only 91.1% demonstrated protective humoral immunity [17]. Our recent measles vaccine study also revealed a wide range of interindividual variations in humoral and cell-mediated immune
Furthermore, the WHO and others have also repeatedly called for the worldwide eradication of measles [7,204]. However, measles eradication is unlikely as population immunity of 96–98% is required to prevent persisting measles endemicity [7,8,27,201]. In a recent study of measles-vaccine efficacy from 1960 to 2010, median efficacy was only 94% [28]. Thus, approaches to eradicating measles will likely require consideration of new measles vaccines and vaccination strategies that overcome the many barriers inherent in the current measles vaccines [6,29–32].

We predict, based on the type of work discussed herein, a time when it will be possible to determine what diseases an individual is at risk for, what vaccine(s) they should receive, at what doses and the chance that they may experience any significant adverse event. This is a very different experience than the current situation where essentially everyone gets every vaccine, given in the same manner, at the same dose and same number of doses – ignoring the reality that we are genetically preprogrammed to immunologically respond in predetermined differing patterns. Full realization of this level of personalization will require what we do not currently have...”

While the current measles vaccine used in the USA and many other countries is safe and effective, paradoxically in the unique case of measles, it appears to insufficiently induce herd immunity in the population. This relates to a combination of factors including: higher than observed rates of primary and secondary vaccine failure in clinical practice versus that seen in clinical trials; the inability to guarantee a minimum of two doses of vaccine to every individual in the population; the need for two doses of vaccine and the inability to use the vaccine in significant subgroups of the population (immunocompromised persons, persons with significant contraindications or adverse reactions to the vaccine, and so on); cost; cold-chain requirements; and other factors including interindividual variations in immune responses due to genetic variations. ...
5 years later comment..
Despite the progress in our knowledge, improved and novel next-generation measles vaccines will not be developed for routine clinical use within the next 5 years. However, the knowledge base described herein and imminent scientific contributions in immunogenetics will substantially advance the field of viral vaccines, and measles vaccine in particular, with important implications for future longer-term vaccine development, vaccination practices and measles eradication.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3570049/

 
Old 05-12-2019, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
25,223 posts, read 30,079,605 times
Reputation: 31352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nik4me View Post
Oh, I see Suzy - you are back!
Are you such an irrational fan of vaccines that you selectively pick up facts, denying/ ignoring others to just suit your point of view, which could be summarized “ vaccines are omnipresent, omnipotent and benevolent”?
And then you “ hunt” down every individual, who expresses a slight ambivalence, perhaps doubts, you attack every fact presented to you, but not with the fact, just your opinion or some story you heard.
Social and mass media hysteria does not help in so called current measles “ outbreak”
You don’t seem to argue against refugees and and an international travel!?
People die not only from measles but from listeria, salmonella, clostridia difficile, etc, etc.
Each of them preventable, but I don’t see you with the equipment checking every piece of meat or lettuce at the grocery.
People die- it is a statistical game, unfortunately.
I have no time, inclination or drive to get you to change your rigid mind by mimicking you in arguing incessantly regarding every shred of any evidence, fact, etc- you can do your own research- using your tenacity to overturn the facts you are presenting as infallible if you want to see other people’s positions- people are not all stupid with herd mentality. There are some thinking individuals out there..
Give you just 1 last example.
You just claimed measles vaccine 97% efficient.
It is not so based on a research and a resulting summary arguing for a “ individualized, genetics based new measles vaccine
To summarize 55 pages - even in immunized with 2 doses of vaccine up to 53% of population got measles, up to 10-20% won’t develop immunity due to genetic factors of an individual, there is substantial “ waning” of immunity in just a few years (7?)
And in order to eliminate the measles your favorite “ herd immunity” must be 96-98%. Current vaccine official efficiency is 94% in the lab!!!!
“.....Although effective, the current live-attenuated measles vaccines have limitations. Vaccine failure (i.e., the failure for the individual to either mount or sustain a protective immune response) occurs despite the receipt of two doses of vaccine [6–13,201]. Measles elimination has failed primarily due to failure to vaccinate, but also in part due to vaccine failure, allowing the accumulation of susceptible individuals and the occurrence of outbreaks when exposure occurs [9–11,14,15]. As a result, even in highly vaccinated populations, substantial proportions of those infected in an outbreak will have measles...

...The 1989–1991 US measles outbreaks clearly demonstrate this; 20–40% of the reported cases were previously immunized with one or two doses of vaccine [11], and this phenomenon continues (Table 1). In October 2011, a prolonged measles outbreak in Quebec resulted in more than 700 cases; one high school had 98 reported measles cases, of which 53% had received two doses of a measles-containing vaccine [13]...

Estimates of the immunogenicity of the current, live-attenuated measles vaccines vary substantially. Our laboratory found only 81% to be seropositive in a sample of 1490 school-aged children all having had a single dose of measles-containing vaccine received at 12 months or later in life; of the remaining 19% who were seronegative, one in five who received a second dose remained seronegative [11]. Various studies estimate anywhere from 2 to 10% of those vaccinated with two doses fail to develop protective humoral immunity [11,14,17,18], and those antibody levels wane over time, which can result in infection [17,19–21]. In our evaluation of 763 healthy school-aged children in Rochester (MN, USA), all previously vaccinated with two doses of MMR, only 91.1% demonstrated protective humoral immunity [17]. Our recent measles vaccine study also revealed a wide range of interindividual variations in humoral and cell-mediated immune
Furthermore, the WHO and others have also repeatedly called for the worldwide eradication of measles [7,204]. However, measles eradication is unlikely as population immunity of 96–98% is required to prevent persisting measles endemicity [7,8,27,201]. In a recent study of measles-vaccine efficacy from 1960 to 2010, median efficacy was only 94% [28]. Thus, approaches to eradicating measles will likely require consideration of new measles vaccines and vaccination strategies that overcome the many barriers inherent in the current measles vaccines [6,29–32].

We predict, based on the type of work discussed herein, a time when it will be possible to determine what diseases an individual is at risk for, what vaccine(s) they should receive, at what doses and the chance that they may experience any significant adverse event. This is a very different experience than the current situation where essentially everyone gets every vaccine, given in the same manner, at the same dose and same number of doses – ignoring the reality that we are genetically preprogrammed to immunologically respond in predetermined differing patterns. Full realization of this level of personalization will require what we do not currently have...”

While the current measles vaccine used in the USA and many other countries is safe and effective, paradoxically in the unique case of measles, it appears to insufficiently induce herd immunity in the population. This relates to a combination of factors including: higher than observed rates of primary and secondary vaccine failure in clinical practice versus that seen in clinical trials; the inability to guarantee a minimum of two doses of vaccine to every individual in the population; the need for two doses of vaccine and the inability to use the vaccine in significant subgroups of the population (immunocompromised persons, persons with significant contraindications or adverse reactions to the vaccine, and so on); cost; cold-chain requirements; and other factors including interindividual variations in immune responses due to genetic variations. ...
5 years later comment..
Despite the progress in our knowledge, improved and novel next-generation measles vaccines will not be developed for routine clinical use within the next 5 years. However, the knowledge base described herein and imminent scientific contributions in immunogenetics will substantially advance the field of viral vaccines, and measles vaccine in particular, with important implications for future longer-term vaccine development, vaccination practices and measles eradication.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3570049/
The current measles outbreaks in the US are in unvaccinated populations. As of May 10, there were 225 reported cases of measles in Rockland County, NY. Of those with known vaccination status, 91% are unvaccinated, 5.6% had only one dose of vaccine, and 3.4% had two doses of vaccine. That 3.4% number is right in line with the quoted failure rate for two doses of measles vaccine.

County of Rockland, New York :: Measles Information

The Quebec outbreak you mentioned:

https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/207/6/990/898747

"In the initial Quebec outbreak school, protection in 2-dose recipients did not change with greater intervals between the first and the second doses but increased from 93% to 97.5% when the first dose was administered at ≥15 months of age rather than at 12 months."

So how could half the measles cases be in vaccinated students if the vaccine was 93 to 98% effective? Well, you have to know how many students did not get measles.

https://www.macleans.ca/society/heal...r-an-outbreak/

There were 1475 students and staff, of whom 98 got measles (your figure). That means 1377 did not.

1377 divided by 1475 = 93.3% did not get measles.

"At the school, officials found, roughly four per cent of those who’d been vaccinated were felled by measles—but among the unvaccinated, the attack rate was much higher, and 82 per cent got sick."

So how do we get equal numbers of vaccinated and unvaccinated measles cases? That is because so many more people are vaccinated than not.

For example, take 1000 people. Vaccinate 95% of them with two doses of measles vaccine: 950. Of those, about 3% do not respond to the vaccine and are unprotected: 28.5

That leaves 50 unvaccinated.

Expose them all to measles and about 90% will catch the disease:

28.5 x 0.9 =26 vaccinated, but 950-26 = 924 did not get sick. 924 divided by 950 = 97% effectiveness for the vaccine.

50 x 0.9 = 45 unvaccinated, only 5 did not get sick.

Measles can be eradicated. It has already been eliminated in the US. However, the failure to control the current outbreaks in NY due to stubborn refusal on the part of people in the affected populations to vaccinate does not bode well for that elimination to continue.

I am all for new and better vaccines. Until we have them we have to use the ones we have.
 
Old 05-12-2019, 10:17 AM
 
13,051 posts, read 16,104,079 times
Reputation: 15249
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNC4Me View Post
Sure they should. Just like childless people or those like me who sent their kids to private school. Just because someone opts out of public school doesn’t mean they’re off the hook for helping fund it.
There's a difference between "opting" out and and being refused entry.
 
Old 05-12-2019, 10:19 AM
 
13,051 posts, read 16,104,079 times
Reputation: 15249
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
By that reasoning only those with children in public school should pay school taxes. My children went to a private school but I still paid school taxes. No children in school since 1996 but still pay school taxes.
I have no children in school anymore either...still pay taxes too....that's fair, but not if we're going to make prerequisites for children to attend....especially ones that weren't there before.
 
Old 05-12-2019, 10:23 AM
 
13,051 posts, read 16,104,079 times
Reputation: 15249
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
Anti-vaxxers are people who would rather swim across a crocodile infested river because they just "know" the bridge is unsafe and has a .0001% chance of collapsing.
That's the stupidest thing I've ever read....ridiculous...
You obviously know nothing about it, and don't care.....good for you...keep getting those shots so you'll feel safe.
 
Old 05-12-2019, 10:26 AM
 
13,051 posts, read 16,104,079 times
Reputation: 15249
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post

If you believe in God, then he's sent you the vaccines to stay safe. Don't go whining to him when your kids are injured or die because you turned them down. That's not his fault, its yours.
HAHAHAHA...too funny.
 
Old 05-12-2019, 10:36 AM
 
7,322 posts, read 4,969,354 times
Reputation: 14369
Quote:
Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
There's a difference between "opting" out and and being refused entry.
No different than 100 other things that have requirements for entry. Can’t qualify for a drivers license? Some portion of your state and federal taxes still go toward the upkeep of the roads. Can’t vote because you’re ineligible? Too bad, you still help pay for elections.

Choices have consequences. The choice not to vaccinate means you have to find other educational options.
 
Old 05-12-2019, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Washington state
5,610 posts, read 3,055,915 times
Reputation: 17280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nik4me View Post

While the current measles vaccine used in the USA and many other countries is safe and effective, paradoxically in the unique case of measles, it appears to insufficiently induce herd immunity in the population.
Then why was measles declared eradicated from the US in 2000 when we had a 97% inoculation rate?

California''s tightened rules pay off against measles (dated today, by the way)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ca...les/ar-AABfHAi

I don't understand why you're arguing against something that can help people. Why does it have to be all or nothing? Sure people die from other things, but would you advocate not using seat belts because seat belts don't save everyone who's in a car crash? What if this wasn't measles or mumps or whooping cough? What if it were something more serious, like polio or small pox? One in three people who got smallpox died and it's scary to think if anti-vaxxers were around then, we never would have eliminated it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
That's the stupidest thing I've ever read....ridiculous...
You obviously know nothing about it, and don't care.....good for you...keep getting those shots so you'll feel safe.
I've had shingles - I KNOW what I'm talking about. You better believe I'll get the vaccine so I won't get shingles again and if you had an ounce of sense, you'd get the chickenpox or shingles vaccine as well.

What do you know about having painful, red, running sores over half your face, up into your hairline, and on your eyelids, causing you to lose two weeks of work? What do you know about worrying about a shingle sore that just might land on your otic nerve, causing damage to your eyesight? What do you know about experiencing pain so sharp and sudden on your face that you have to pull over to the side of the road while driving? What do you know about having permanent nerve damage and pain from shingles for the rest of your life?

I know about that. You anti-vaxxers just get your information from YouTube.
 
Old 05-13-2019, 08:32 AM
 
13,051 posts, read 16,104,079 times
Reputation: 15249
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNC4Me View Post
No different than 100 other things that have requirements for entry. Can’t qualify for a drivers license? Some portion of your state and federal taxes still go toward the upkeep of the roads. Can’t vote because you’re ineligible? Too bad, you still help pay for elections.

Choices have consequences. The choice not to vaccinate means you have to find other educational options.
So are you saying it's a "choice" to not qualify for your license?...
Should we take those licenses away from people (who already have them, and have been driving for years)...just because we've decided new requirements are now needed to keep it?

Last edited by purehuman; 05-13-2019 at 08:44 AM..
 
Old 05-13-2019, 08:37 AM
 
7,322 posts, read 4,969,354 times
Reputation: 14369
Quote:
Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
So are you saying it's a "choice" to not qualify for your license?
Are you saying it's a "choice" to not be eligible to vote?
Sure. Choose to drive drunk or get too many violation points on your license and you’ve chosen other actions over the right to drive. Commit a felony and you’ve chosen not to vote (and probably to go to prison).

Laws are added or changed all the time. 18 used to be the legal drinking age. One day a 19 year old could legally drink and the next day they couldn’t. The definition of “drunk” has also changed with many states lowering the threshold where a person can be arrested for drunk driving. Not to mention we’re all going to have to get the new Real ID licenses if we want to get on a plane in a few years.
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