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Old 02-21-2013, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
1,671 posts, read 2,398,015 times
Reputation: 2951

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElleTea View Post
It's silly to argue about this.

I'm just saying that IN MY EXPERIENCE in St Louis, I have heard a lot of southern accents and have seen grits on menus often. This was when I was a kid, mostly, as we went to St Louis at least once a year. So, saying grits is moving north recently...well, if you consider the 80s recent, so be it.

A southern accent and grits on menus isnt something to be offended about, so I don't know why you are getting so defensive, honestly.

Moving on now!

AMEN.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,462,803 times
Reputation: 1018
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElleTea View Post
It's silly to argue about this.

I'm just saying that IN MY EXPERIENCE in St Louis, I have heard a lot of southern accents and have seen grits on menus often. This was when I was a kid, mostly, as we went to St Louis at least once a year. So, saying grits is moving north recently...well, if you consider the 80s recent, so be it.

A southern accent and grits on menus isnt something to be offended about, so I don't know why you are getting so defensive, honestly.

Moving on now!
Just,stop,posting. I am upset about it because the southern dialect is not the native st. louis dialect, and also because grits on a menu are almost unheard of in st. louis. I will not stand for anyone who inaccurately stereotypes my city and state. Now do you get it? Your limited experience is in rect contrast to mine as a resident. If your experience is accurate, linguists, the people of this city, and me would agree with you. As far as grits go, you havent looked at your own,state enough. How dare you tell me not to get upset. You arr arrogant enough to believe your opinion is enough? You must be einstein

Last edited by stlouisan; 02-21-2013 at 10:24 AM..
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:19 AM
 
9,411 posts, read 10,372,956 times
Reputation: 8537
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
I am upset about it because the southern dialect is not the native st. louis dialect, and also because grits on a menu are almost unheard of in st. louis. I will not stand for anyone who inaccurately stereotypes my city and state. Now do you get it? Your limited experience is in direct contrast to mine as a resident. If your experience is accurate, linguists, the people of this city, and me would agree with you. As far as grits go, you havent looked at your own,state enough. How dare you tell me not to get upset. You arr arrogant enough to believe your opinion is enough?
Who is stereotyping here besides you? Please show me where anyone has said anything that is an insult to the St Louis area based on an accent and a menu option? I guarantee it didnt come from me. It seems that you are the only one that has a poor opinion of a southern accent or souther menu items here.

I simply stated that in my experiences in St Louis I have heard that southern accent. And the first time I actually saw grits anywhere in my life was at a restaurant in St L. I was pretty young and my brother tried them (and loved them) when we were out for breakfast. These are not opinions, these are observances as a frequent visitor to the city and the state of Missouri in general.

I can honestly say I have never seen grits on a menu here. But if someone were to say "Hey they are on a menu at such-and-such restaurant" I'd be okay with that. I just don't understand why you arent, that's all.

As far as being a visitor vs. a resident, yes, there will be different experiences there (and again, I was just sharing MINE, not stating that they were the only experieinces one could have). I will have to ask a friend who lived in the St Louis area for many years what his experience was and if he noticed a southern influence there.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Sioux Falls, SD area
3,793 posts, read 5,136,499 times
Reputation: 6982
Quote:
Originally Posted by capitalcityguy View Post
The "issue" with the last couple of pages of this discussion is that people are talking past each other. Maybe this will help.

Ronnie (and his reluctant band of supporters here) aren't interested in an academic definition for the purposes of a general discussion on the differences in accents that we hear in our everyday lives. I tend to be in this camp (at least for an informal discussion as this is). My general catagories for the midwest - northern, no accent, southern. From there a add an adjective -e.g...that person has a strong (or weak) northern accent.

For the average person, I think that is all the further they care define this. Shouldn't that be OK (as long as we're not writing a research paper here)?

For my own educational purposes, I appreciate the knowledge that St Louisan is providing here, I just think he/she needs to realize most of us only care to discuss this topic from a more informal place. I do understand being irritated by some of the examples of broad brush stereotypes however. That can be a pet peeve of mine too.
GOOD POST. I'd bump your rep, but CD won't let me yet. This started out as a light hearted discussion of what various people have encountered by living there or having visited to specific geographies of Iowa. Most everyone can recognize changes in dialect when visiting specific areas when you talk to many people in that region. Way back in this thread it was mentioned that where you start recognizing some conversations that have a "southern" twinge to it was south of Hwy 34. Without the massive detail from some learned academic who has studied the intricacies of American speech in order to secure some grant money, this comment to me is probably the most accurate.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,462,803 times
Reputation: 1018
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgg View Post
GOOD POST. I'd bump your rep, but CD won't let me yet. This started out as a light hearted discussion of what various people have encountered by living there or having visited to specific geographies of Iowa. Most everyone can recognize changes in dialect when visiting specific areas when you talk to many people in that region. Way back in this thread it was mentioned that where you start recognizing some conversations that have a "southern" twinge to it was south of Hwy 34. Without the massive detail from some learned academic who has studied the intricacies of American speech in order to secure some grant money, this comment to me is probably the most accurate.
GRant money? LOL. You're just too much...you think universities will do a half-***ed job on something and expect to receive grant money, or that I'm doing this for some grant money. The University of Pennsylvania is an honest and good school, unlike Penn State. You've been out in the South Dakota wilderness too long. I guess too many details are too much for you to handle. As far as changes in dialect are concerned, yes, compared to where you live, southern Iowa and 2/3 of Missouri have a southern "twinge" to their speech. But that is all that it is. You claimed it's full-blown southern in all of Missouri, which is grossly inaccurate. More like 1/3 of the state is the real answer. And no, a lot of people can't tell the difference between South Midland and Southern dialect...the average person doesn't have that kind of capacity. Are you suggesting we do away with the study of linguistics since apparantly everyone is an expert now? How about surgeons as well...anyone can operate on another person...all they need is a pair of hands and surgical tools and they'll do just a cracker-jack job, right?

Last edited by stlouisan; 02-21-2013 at 02:20 PM..
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,462,803 times
Reputation: 1018
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElleTea View Post
Who is stereotyping here besides you? Please show me where anyone has said anything that is an insult to the St Louis area based on an accent and a menu option? I guarantee it didnt come from me. It seems that you are the only one that has a poor opinion of a southern accent or souther menu items here.

I simply stated that in my experiences in St Louis I have heard that southern accent. And the first time I actually saw grits anywhere in my life was at a restaurant in St L. I was pretty young and my brother tried them (and loved them) when we were out for breakfast. These are not opinions, these are observances as a frequent visitor to the city and the state of Missouri in general.

I can honestly say I have never seen grits on a menu here. But if someone were to say "Hey they are on a menu at such-and-such restaurant" I'd be okay with that. I just don't understand why you arent, that's all.

As far as being a visitor vs. a resident, yes, there will be different experiences there (and again, I was just sharing MINE, not stating that they were the only experieinces one could have). I will have to ask a friend who lived in the St Louis area for many years what his experience was and if he noticed a southern influence there.
I'll save you the trouble and answer your question for you. Southern influence does exist here, but it's only on a minor level. Any St. Louis resident will tell you that St. Louis is a Midwestern city with southern influences. Most Missouri residents should tell you that Missouri is a Midwestern state with Southern influences. One example of a sample of Missouri residents who identified as southern was given by a study done by University of North Carolina. Hundreds of residents were tested for every state on whether or not they considered themselves Southern. The result for Missouri I believe was around 23%. For states like Kentucky, Virginia, and Oklahoma, the result was between 60-70%. This is a real study, and it's posted below. Of course, some people on here think their opinions speak much louder than professional linguistic studies or the thousands of people per state surveyed on here.

UNC-CH surveys reveal where the ‘real’ South lies

Last edited by stlouisan; 02-21-2013 at 02:18 PM..
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,462,803 times
Reputation: 1018
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElleTea View Post
Who is stereotyping here besides you? Please show me where anyone has said anything that is an insult to the St Louis area based on an accent and a menu option? I guarantee it didnt come from me. It seems that you are the only one that has a poor opinion of a southern accent or souther menu items here.

I simply stated that in my experiences in St Louis I have heard that southern accent. And the first time I actually saw grits anywhere in my life was at a restaurant in St L. I was pretty young and my brother tried them (and loved them) when we were out for breakfast. These are not opinions, these are observances as a frequent visitor to the city and the state of Missouri in general.

I can honestly say I have never seen grits on a menu here. But if someone were to say "Hey they are on a menu at such-and-such restaurant" I'd be okay with that. I just don't understand why you arent, that's all.

As far as being a visitor vs. a resident, yes, there will be different experiences there (and again, I was just sharing MINE, not stating that they were the only experieinces one could have). I will have to ask a friend who lived in the St Louis area for many years what his experience was and if he noticed a southern influence there.
Your experience does not jive with mine, nor does it agree to professional studies on dialect done on the area. Just because you've heard it doesn't mean it's the native dialect. I am telling you as a resident and someone much more knowledgeable in the area than you are, the native St. Louis dialect sounds nothing like a southern accent. It is either as General American as most of Iowa or drops the letter o for the letter a...forty=farty. I guess you know more given you seem to know everyone that's an anomaly that somehow I don't run across even if I try. Grits are not a delicacy in St. Louis. Just because they existed here in the '80s means nothing to me...we're further south than Iowa, so we got them first. But they still are very hard to find here and in much of the state.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:14 AM
 
9,411 posts, read 10,372,956 times
Reputation: 8537
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
Your experience does not jive with mine, nor does it agree to professional studies on dialect done on the area. Just because you've heard it doesn't mean it's the native dialect. I am telling you as a resident and someone much more knowledgeable in the area than you are, the native St. Louis dialect sounds nothing like a southern accent. It is either as General American as most of Iowa or drops the letter o for the letter a...forty=farty. I guess you know more given you seem to know everyone that's an anomaly that somehow I don't run across even if I try. Grits are not a delicacy in St. Louis. Just because they existed here in the '80s means nothing to me...we're further south than Iowa, so we got them first. But they still are very hard to find here and in much of the state.

I never said it was the native dialect. I just said it exists there.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,462,803 times
Reputation: 1018
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElleTea View Post
I never said it was the native dialect. I just said it exists there.
Well then maybe now we finally agree.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:01 PM
 
1,189 posts, read 1,915,766 times
Reputation: 986
Why do we care? Iowa is a boring state, Missouri is better.
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