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The so-called moderate Muslim is an oxymoron. Any that might exist are so cowed by the majority they have to remain silent or be killed. It is a barabarous and evil religion of conquest and domination that has nothing to do with the plagiarized principle they copied from Christ. It is a sibling rivalry attempt to found a non-Jewish alternative based on the illegitimate son of Abraham through a slave girl.
Islam is currently responding abreactionally to the devastating defeat and demonstration of impotence that Israel inflicted on the combined Arab states in war. This unabiding vengeance will continue until they can eradicate Israel from the face of the earth. There is nothing compromising, tolerant or peaceful about Islam as currently manifested on the earth. To the Muslim of today . . . paradise of the Qu'ran is the eradication of the State of Israel.
Tactical Response, early and often! Islam's sunset.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The so-called moderate Muslim is an oxymoron. Any that might exist are so cowed by the majority they have to remain silent or be killed. It is a barabarous and evil religion of conquest and domination that has nothing to do with the plagiarized principle they copied from Christ. It is a sibling rivalry attempt to found a non-Jewish alternative based on the illegitimate son of Abraham through a slave girl.
Islam is currently responding abreactionally to the devastating defeat and demonstration of impotence that Israel inflicted on the combined Arab states in war. This unabiding vengeance will continue until they can eradicate Israel from the face of the earth. There is nothing compromising, tolerant or peaceful about Islam as currently manifested on the earth. To the Muslim of today . . . paradise of the Qu'ran is the eradication of the State of Israel.
However, Mystic, I'd say time may be running out for Israel, given the relentless progress by Islam towards, let's speculate, 4 or 6 functioning fission devices clumsily mounted on some overburdened but still functional SCUD Vs that will, at the very least be able to lob misery, death and mayhem into tiny Israel, rendering it essentially uninhabitable for 100+ years.
So, I'd expect Israel, with it's well-developed Intel systems, and with our tacit approval (marked by "No Comment" from the White House) to utilize their far more sophisticated fusion reactive devices to "properly" annihilate the opposition, as a prophylactic and permanent measure.
All because the Muslim community cannot reign in it's radical elements. Too bad; countless millions of additional innocents will be murdered as a direct consequence of Allah and his cowardly acolytes. Isn't there some passage in the Qu'Ran about the fires of hell, raining down from the heavens?
..."Where's the angry crowds of "peaceful" Muslims yelling those radicals down?"...
the same place where you are. at home living your own life. who says that just because theyre muslim that muslims have to stop it. its not our fault their doing what theyre doing. why dont you start a protest against terrorism?
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Originally Posted by rifleman
..."No-one's asking for magic, just perseverance. Given the monstrosity of their activities, you have to take very strident and vigorous actions. Do not trust anyone until you know truly them or their mindsets.
Otherwise, you will all eventually be kicked out. I'm just saying! We will not tolerate continued cowardly acts of terrorism. Do your part! If we ever heard of a group of peace-loving Muslims turning in their terrorist brothers here in the US, it would truly change people's opinion. We're all waiting but so far? nothing, ever!"...
you obviously have no idea what its like being a muslim in the states. people dont like you that dont know you just because of what you believe. and you want a group of people muslims, that are hated already because of what some terrorist did, to go out and protest? please. i can protest just as much as you the only difference is people wouldnt listen to us because like you, they think they know enough about us already. calling us cowards? your just as much a coward if your not doing anything about it either. what its not your fault that terrorist did what they did and continue to do what theyre doing? its not my fault either.
Ok, I'll admit I don't know a lot of the details of the Islamic faith. Perhaps you'll answer a few of my questions here or repond to my comments.
These are the things I "know" about Islam. I put quotations around "know" since I'm willing to be enlightned about what I "know" by you or anyone so inclined to challenge any of my comments. As I've already stated, I don't know much about islam. The majority of what I know comes from what I learn right after a building or group of people have been blown to bits.
1) It doesn't seem to me that the overwhelming majority of Islamic societies give women anywhere near the rights that the men have. You know...an unaccompanied woman in public is punished. Some cannot even show their faces in public....needing rather to wear the burkka (sp)...while the men of course are free to walk around unencumbered by a facial mask. Seems to me I read somewhere about the women fighting for the right just to attend school....while I'm reasonably certain that none of the men had to fight for that privilage. How about keeping the women home and painting the windows black so they can't even peek out. Seems I've heard of that too. Or a woman who's killed/stoned for having sex outside of marriage while the male half is punished to a much lesser degree.
the stuff you hear about women is all incorrect. my friends wives go out all the time. they ddont get punished or anything if another muslim man happens to cross paths with them. maybe thats what some people do i dont doubt that but its not part of islam. and the hijab, which is the covering of a woman, it is not forced onto a girl or a woman. they have the choice to wear it or not. my friends wives, when they converted accepted islam but didnt start to wear the hijab until a couple of years later. whats wrong with that anyways? a woman wants to cover herself rather than go out in a bikini or tight clothes and have other guys look at her while her husband walks beside her? ultimately its her choice of what she wants to do but ive heard of some pretty bad stuff that happens to some women, but its not anything that god or the prophet said. women are not kept inside their houses or anything. and adultry is adultry. no matter if a woman does it or a man does it. theyre both guilty of it. they will both get the same punishment if not in this life then in the herafter, i say not "if not in this life" because some people do get away with it. man or woman. but the judgement is the same on the day of judgement you are seen as equals before god.
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Originally Posted by jasper1372
Honor killings....where a female shows to much skin (dresses inappropriately), has sex outside of marriage(even if raped), or refuses to marry the fellow her father say's she supposd to marry.....well, she sometimes killed by the...hold your breath here folks, her own father or another male member of the family that ostensibly is supposed to love his kids....guess not. Has anyone got an example of a son being killed for the familys honor ? I haven't heard of any...but I'm willing to be convinced if anyone has valid examples. Of course while giving me examples of males killed for the families honor might make things more equal in the muslim faith.....it would just be more equally depraved in my opinion.
if a woman gets raped she couldnt help it. if you can show me in the quran or a hadith where it says that the prophet said or allah said that it was ok for a man to kill a woman because she got raped. if you cant then people can say "i killed my daughter in the name of allah because she was raped" that doesnt make it right nor is it a part of islam. its just someone trying to make it a part of islam. but it will never be because its not right.
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Originally Posted by jasper1372
Seems most terrorist muslims yell "alla akbar" (sp) which I believe means "god is great", right before blowing something up and killing innocent people. Kind of makes you wonder if you'd really want to spend much time with "allah" if he's amused by that type of thing. Of course if you throw in the 72 virgins in paradise....I guess that may change a young mans mind.
they can yell whatever they want to but like i said you cant point fingers at the religion. you can point them at terrorism. if a christian yells "in the name of jesus" and does the same thing that doesnt make it part of christianity. theyre plain and simple just terrorist. they just happen to b muslim and think that what they are doing is right or ok but no matter which way you look at it its not. nowhere in the quran does it say to kill innocent people. or to blow yourself up or to blow up buildings. these are acts of terrorism. not practices of islam. do not confuse the two because they do not co-inside.
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Originally Posted by jasper1372
Seems to me that for a society (muslim) that is so strict with a woman showing a "little ankle" or heaven forbid her face in public, to be so fascinated by having 72 virgins to deflower in the hereafter is a rather telling thing. Most people of any set of rules (religious faith or just socitial morays) seem fascinated and in many cases preoccupied by that which is forbidden. That would seem to apply here. Even though other faiths all seem to have lots of sexual rules, most are nowhere near as strict as the muslim faith. Christians, while they have lots of sexual rules still allow the gals to wear skirts/dresses to church where, heaven forbid, they show not only some ankle....but sometimes even the lower knee.
a woman in islam chooses to wear what she wants, they just like wearing the hijab because they know it pleases thier lord to see them cover. they cover and only the immediate family, bros, sis, mom, dad, sons, daughters, husbands can see them unveiled. or other muslim women. but women in islam choose not to let anyone else see them because they save that for their husbands. being the ones for their eyes only. if your okay with other guys checking out your girl and basically can picture her naked, then i mean more power to you but in islam a woman chooses to cover because she doesnt want anyone else to see her legs or arms, or hair, etc. because she wants to save it for her husbands eyes only. and this in turn pleases god because a woman is not out there flaunting her short skirt ro tight shirts for all of everyone else to see. but muhammad gave woman rights. youve obviously never really looked into christianity either because if you did youd know that the christians today are not even practicing christianity correctly. read timothy chapter 2.. or here ill get it for you...
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
this is basically saying that a woman should not speak in a church and they should not wear jewelry either. to be shamefaced meaning to have your head down like your in shame. a woman is not even supposed to talk in a church but yet you see women with jewelry on becoming ministers, etc.
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Originally Posted by jasper1372
Having 72 vigins at your disposal would seem to be a very effective way of getting a young man to blow himself (of course along with lots of evil civilians too of course) up....seems kind of a very convenient thing to tell a teenage boy, who's hormones are raging at the time, by the man behind the curtain who's pulling the strings. I have heard recently though, that in the name of treating the young gals more like the young muslim men, they powers that be have instructed some of the young women to have bombs surgically implanted in their breasts that will allow them to more effectively get through airport security and blow up jet airliners....or could even be useful in a crowded marketplace. So you see...all those muslim men terrorists leaders do, if you dig real deep, have a soft spot for the women gender. Hey...now there are two uses for them. They of course make babies, and now, we'e discovered they also have another use for their breasts. Feeding the youngins.....and blowing up infidels.
you keep bringing up this commiting suicide deal but youll never find that its okay in the quran or any authentic hadith because its not part of islam. theyre just terrorist that unfortunately brainwash people into thinking that what they are doing is righteous.
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Originally Posted by jasper1372
And what's with those muslims that homeland security catches from time to time that have lived in America for a number of years and enjoyed the fruits of a democratic society...you know, freedom, a western education and all that jazz....and then they leave town for a bit to "study" under muhammed alakazam (or whomever) in Afganistan or Somalia or wherever.....all so they can come back to America and blow some of us up who've treated them well while they were here.
i dont know. maybe they were just talking to the wrong people and got the wrong information. you do not need to go overses to study islam. some of the best imams can be found here in the states. but like i said islam does not teach to blow yourself up as ok. its forbidden.
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Originally Posted by jasper1372
Ya I know we've got a few local nutcases, born and raised in the good ol' USA who have blown a few things up too....but by golly, at least none of the prasied "allah" before pressing the button. I guess that's what makes me wonder about the muslim faith the most....praising god right before purposely murdering innocent civilians.....someone, anyone, please explain that to me. And the virgin thing too....while you're at it....explain that to me too. It just seems odd to be so restrictive of sexual activity in your worldy life only to be part of a mosh pit orgy in heaven. That allah sure had a split personality.
like i said terrorist can say what they want but that doesnt mean its right or a part of islam. if a muslim man came up to you and said allah said its ok to rape women, are you going to start raping women or are you going to research and find out if he really said that. if you just say OH! HE SAID RAPE WAS OK THAT MEANS ITS PART OF ISLAM then so be it, but that doesnt mean that it is because you cant prove that it is. you never will. youll never find a teaching of the prophet that said its ok to kill innocent people, its ok to rape women, force your women to cover. these things do happen by some muslim men but that doesnt make it a part of the religion.
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Originally Posted by jasper1372
So...have at it. Seriously....I'd like someone who knows way more about the muslim faith that I do to explain, tell me I'm dead wrong, or even attempt to justify some of the things I've mentioned above
the stuff you hear about women is all incorrect. my friends wives go out all the time. they ddont get punished or anything if another muslim man happens to cross paths with them. maybe thats what some people do i dont doubt that but its not part of islam. and the hijab, which is the covering of a woman, it is not forced onto a girl or a woman. they have the choice to wear it or not. my friends wives, when they converted accepted islam but didnt start to wear the hijab until a couple of years later. whats wrong with that anyways? a woman wants to cover herself rather than go out in a bikini or tight clothes and have other guys look at her while her husband walks beside her? ultimately its her choice of what she wants to do but ive heard of some pretty bad stuff that happens to some women, but its not anything that god or the prophet said. women are not kept inside their houses or anything. and adultry is adultry. no matter if a woman does it or a man does it. theyre both guilty of it. they will both get the same punishment if not in this life then in the herafter, i say not "if not in this life" because some people do get away with it. man or woman. but the judgement is the same on the day of judgement you are seen as equals before god.
if a woman gets raped she couldnt help it. if you can show me in the quran or a hadith where it says that the prophet said or allah said that it was ok for a man to kill a woman because she got raped. if you cant then people can say "i killed my daughter in the name of allah because she was raped" that doesnt make it right nor is it a part of islam. its just someone trying to make it a part of islam. but it will never be because its not right.
they can yell whatever they want to but like i said you cant point fingers at the religion. you can point them at terrorism. if a christian yells "in the name of jesus" and does the same thing that doesnt make it part of christianity. theyre plain and simple just terrorist. they just happen to b muslim and think that what they are doing is right or ok but no matter which way you look at it its not. nowhere in the quran does it say to kill innocent people. or to blow yourself up or to blow up buildings. these are acts of terrorism. not practices of islam. do not confuse the two because they do not co-inside.
a woman in islam chooses to wear what she wants, they just like wearing the hijab because they know it pleases thier lord to see them cover. they cover and only the immediate family, bros, sis, mom, dad, sons, daughters, husbands can see them unveiled. or other muslim women. but women in islam choose not to let anyone else see them because they save that for their husbands. being the ones for their eyes only. if your okay with other guys checking out your girl and basically can picture her naked, then i mean more power to you but in islam a woman chooses to cover because she doesnt want anyone else to see her legs or arms, or hair, etc. because she wants to save it for her husbands eyes only. and this in turn pleases god because a woman is not out there flaunting her short skirt ro tight shirts for all of everyone else to see. but muhammad gave woman rights. youve obviously never really looked into christianity either because if you did youd know that the christians today are not even practicing christianity correctly. read timothy chapter 2.. or here ill get it for you...
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
this is basically saying that a woman should not speak in a church and they should not wear jewelry either. to be shamefaced meaning to have your head down like your in shame. a woman is not even supposed to talk in a church but yet you see women with jewelry on becoming ministers, etc.
you keep bringing up this commiting suicide deal but youll never find that its okay in the quran or any authentic hadith because its not part of islam. theyre just terrorist that unfortunately brainwash people into thinking that what they are doing is righteous.
i dont know. maybe they were just talking to the wrong people and got the wrong information. you do not need to go overses to study islam. some of the best imams can be found here in the states. but like i said islam does not teach to blow yourself up as ok. its forbidden.
like i said terrorist can say what they want but that doesnt mean its right or a part of islam. if a muslim man came up to you and said allah said its ok to rape women, are you going to start raping women or are you going to research and find out if he really said that. if you just say OH! HE SAID RAPE WAS OK THAT MEANS ITS PART OF ISLAM then so be it, but that doesnt mean that it is because you cant prove that it is. you never will. youll never find a teaching of the prophet that said its ok to kill innocent people, its ok to rape women, force your women to cover. these things do happen by some muslim men but that doesnt make it a part of the religion.
i hope that helped clear some things up
Sukrill....I give you credit for your calm and reasoned answers to some of my comments/questions. Thank you for that !
Your comments spured a couple more thoughts....as per below
Your comment that many if not most christians don't accurately practice their faith according to biblical teaching anyway, is spot on. Thank god that they don't....or else it would be a pretty repressive religious society we'd live in...not that it isn't repressive enough the way it is.
So given that christianity isn't practiced correctly, it would seem that for the most part christians have left behind the more restrictive aspects of the faith according to the bible. In other words current christians are more "liberal" if you will, with biblical teachings.
Given our previous coversation, doesn't it seem to you then that many if not most muslims (certainly the in the middle east) practice a MUCH more conservative version of muslim than the quran treaches ? In other words....they seem to preach much more repression than, if you're accurate in your statements to me, the quran teaches.
So how do these "traditions" or "intrepretations" of islam get started if they are not in the quran ? I mean if christians aren't practicing accurately according to the bible (and I agree they conveniently aren't), it seems they are leaving out the repressive and more vile aspects of the bible.....all the while many/most muslims seem to have locked onto a much more violent and repressive aspect of the quran that according to you isn't even in the book they supposedly revere. How do we square this fact ?
Your comment about suicide bombers yelling anything they want before they do their dasterdly deeds is correct. However, my point is why is it only muslims that seem to praise god before blowing something up ? If christians, or any other people of other religions praised jesus before killing a jetliner of people, I'd concede your point....but it just seems to be the muslims that think god is cool with killing and maiming many of his created people.
So, are you telling me (I honestly don't know and would like a definitive answer from you) that nowhere in the quran it states anything to the effect that any kind of holy warrior or one that does "good deeds" is rewarded with a quantity (maybe something other than 72) virgins ? It just seems I've heard that so much....wondering where it comes from if not the quran.
Lastly...it does bother me that if there are more moderate muslims around the world....they sure don't seem to ever publically excoriate the radical elements in their ranks when a building blows up....the silence is deafening. I can't think of a similar example in the christian faith, but (and I am NO defender of christianity) I' reasonably certain if a group of radical christians were chopping heads off people, bombing market places etc....there would be a pretty public outcry against them by christians themselves.....it would just seem obvious that you'd want to distance yourself from these loons.....so what am I missing....why aren't moderate reasonable muslims screaming about these loons ?
It talks about wine, milk, honey in heaven ... there are people who are allergic to that kind of stuff, then it's not much of a heaven to them. Material stuff is culturally dependent, people in MiddleEast may talk about the abundance hookah (aka Shisha) bars in heaven, but hookah can kill people from other parts of the world.
Sukrill....I give you credit for your calm and reasoned answers to some of my comments/questions. Thank you for that !
Your comments spured a couple more thoughts....as per below
Your comment that many if not most christians don't accurately practice their faith according to biblical teaching anyway, is spot on. Thank god that they don't....or else it would be a pretty repressive religious society we'd live in...not that it isn't repressive enough the way it is.
So given that christianity isn't practiced correctly, it would seem that for the most part christians have left behind the more restrictive aspects of the faith according to the bible. In other words current christians are more "liberal" if you will, with biblical teachings.
no problem im glad i can help clear some of the misunderstandings. i try and clean up what those radicals made a mess of, you know. but yes, i would agree that christianity is more laid back and does not follow the bible 100%. truth is they cant. christian scholars have even said that there are unexplainable errors and contradictions. it tells us in the quran that the bible has been tampered with though. like christians say jesus christ is a part of god, part of the trinity, so they pray to jesus, say things in the name of jesus, but yet when christ walked the earth he NEVER said for anyone to worship him, in fact, when they did he would tell them to pray to our father. now if he was the son of god wouldnt he say HIS father? he never even claimed himself that he was a part of god NOR the son of god. other people made these claims. but they pray to him. they disobeys jesus christ's lessons. but you already know this i was just dragging it on i guess. sorry about that. i used to be a christian and it sucks because i had muslims being able to prove me wrong through my own bible. then when they said it had been tampered with by man and Allah sent his final messenger to make sure that his word would not be corrupted. i could go into a whole other story with that though. basically though, what im saying is that when i found out the bible had been tampered with it all made sense, why things werent making sense to me, then i found islam. i feel im going of subject though, sorry. i get carried away sometimes
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Originally Posted by jasper1372
Given our previous coversation, doesn't it seem to you then that many if not most muslims (certainly the in the middle east) practice a MUCH more conservative version of muslim than the quran treaches ? In other words....they seem to preach much more repression than, if you're accurate in your statements to me, the quran teaches.
well i think it depends on who you talk to. the brothers and sisters i hang out with and go to the mosque with arent repressive. theyre more laid back. but what can i say, nobodys perfect. we try our best and im sure a majority of muslims try and practice islam as best they can. because kee in mind there are literally millions of muslims around the world and the only ones you really hear about or the ones that are portrayed on the media are the WORST ones. all the imams and shieks ive heard to, on cds and the internet, like abdul raheem green, yusuf estes, and others. they all preach the teachings of muhammad and the teachings of the quran. so im not sure what to tell you. im not saying it doesnt happen but every one ive talked to so far isnt more repressive. maybe im reading into your question wrong, im not sure. but let me know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasper1372
So how do these "traditions" or "intrepretations" of islam get started if they are not in the quran ? I mean if christians aren't practicing accurately according to the bible (and I agree they conveniently aren't), it seems they are leaving out the repressive and more vile aspects of the bible.....all the while many/most muslims seem to have locked onto a much more violent and repressive aspect of the quran that according to you isn't even in the book they supposedly revere. How do we square this fact ?
i couldnt agree more. i dont know how these cultures or traditions get mixed in with islam which is why, thank god, i was taught by a very knowledgable imam. he said to verify everything someone tells you. like how to pray for example. the prostrations are specific, and if someone tells me, "brother you should put your hands here or here" i ask them to give me proof that the prophet prostrated like that. thats a small scale example. the religion of islam, its not violent at all, i mean sure there was wars and whatnot back in the days of the prophet but if muslims really followed what has been provided, what has been taught by the prophet, there would be none of these suicide bombers, no muslim terrorist, no men beating women, people are just evil. they are overcome with another feeling to do evil things and allow that to take over what they know is right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasper1372
Your comment about suicide bombers yelling anything they want before they do their dasterdly deeds is correct. However, my point is why is it only muslims that seem to praise god before blowing something up ? If christians, or any other people of other religions praised jesus before killing a jetliner of people, I'd concede your point....but it just seems to be the muslims that think god is cool with killing and maiming many of his created people.
Honestly i dont know why its only muslims that yell it out, i mean whos to say that a christian or catholic is not like lord forgive me before they commit suicide you know, but regardless, idk why they even think to say it. whos to say they all say it either though, all the people that hear it probably die because of their actions you know. but lets just say for the time being that muslims say that before they do whatever it is they do. ive only heard why they might think its ok. but obviously it does not say it in the quran or any hadiths that what they are doing is permissible. so what ive hear is that theres a narration of when the war was going on and that one of the companions of the prophet was fighting and went behind enemy lines to kill off as many of the enemy as he could. in doing so he died as a martyr. he died fighting in the name of god. we know he didnt have the intention of dying, of course he wanted to survive and live another day but what ive heard is that these muslim terrorist say that we are incorrect and the companion KNEW he was going to die and in essence WAS commiting suicide because he knew he was going to die, like he had the intention. its obviously not true but ive heard this narration may be used to persuade or make them feel like they are dying as true martyrs but really theyre just commiting suicide and are ultimately going to be judged for it on the day of judgement. but like i said thats only what ive heard that they may get that idea that what theyre doing is permissable but im not sure what theyre thinking really. i hope that helps out. let me know if theres something that doesnt make sense or maybe i can better describe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasper1372
So, are you telling me (I honestly don't know and would like a definitive answer from you) that nowhere in the quran it states anything to the effect that any kind of holy warrior or one that does "good deeds" is rewarded with a quantity (maybe something other than 72) virgins ? It just seems I've heard that so much....wondering where it comes from if not the quran.
you are rewarded for being a martyr however theres a big difference between someone dying in battle in the name of Allah, a true martyr, and someone strapping a bomb to themselves and killing innocent people and themselves in the name of Allah, thats not a martyr. however im not sure as to the number of virgins you will be rewarded or even if thats something that you are "guaranteed" because from what ive learned so far when you die and you are punished for your sins by the will of Allah, then you ask for whatever you desire, if that happens to be 72 or 50 virgins or however many i dont see why God would not allow you to have what you ask for unless its not in his will. because in the end we all get judged but the better person, the more piest will be rewarded more, this also goes into another whole story though as far as why the heavens are in levels, one above the other. but basically what im saying is that i havent been shown the whole 72 virgins deal and the internet is sometimes not a reliable source for these kinds of questions, they have to be explained by a scholar to get the best answer and most understandable you know. so im sorry i couldnt help much with this one but im not going o lie to you, if i dont know i dont know, but ill try and find out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasper1372
Lastly...it does bother me that if there are more moderate muslims around the world....they sure don't seem to ever publically excoriate the radical elements in their ranks when a building blows up....the silence is deafening. I can't think of a similar example in the christian faith, but (and I am NO defender of christianity) I' reasonably certain if a group of radical christians were chopping heads off people, bombing market places etc....there would be a pretty public outcry against them by christians themselves.....it would just seem obvious that you'd want to distance yourself from these loons.....so what am I missing....why aren't moderate reasonable muslims screaming about these loons ?
well dont get me wrong, we couldnt be more upset with whats going on and the image that is being portrayed amongst us, especially when were here trying to set a good example. but where would we even go to be public about it? i mean i guess me trying to fix the image on us by trying to communicate with people that are confused about the religion is a form of trying but i mean i can only do so much. there are people that are trying here and overseas to i guess you can say stop terrorism. but no one likes it. not you not us, no one. but who are we going to scream out to? the world? and let the world know that we are not terrorist, i gaurantee any average muslim you talk to that really does try to follow the word of Allah, they would be offended at the very thought that you would think they believe its ok to kill themselves and that this is what they believe. truth is, we can only do so much. there are groups though that travel overseas, that have the time and the money to try and educate some of the children over there, that try and build mosque and teach the word of god, but fact is that evil will always be around and we can only do so much. there will always be robberies, murderers, rapist, you can do your best to stop them but youll never end it you know. so we try our best.
i hope this helped. let me know if you have anymore questions or would maybe like more descriptions on something...
A...haa...h!!! vis. the government's lack of intervention in the evolving of the mass's conventional indifference to physical reality. Let us repress the ideal revolt of the Masses. Science is only for specialists, and the masses respond with candor; I have no Idea what you are talking about.
the same place where you are. at home living your own life. who says that just because theyre muslim that muslims have to stop it. its not our fault their doing what theyre doing.
Answer: we Christian-based societies do not have a modern equivalent to the Islamic code of suicide, fatwah or of insultingly calling outsiders "infidels". There are simply not a profusion of Christian bombing fanatics presently in this world, or for the past several hundred years in fact, bent on the systematic and wholesale destruction of another belief system or an entire culture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill
"why dont you start a protest against terrorism?"
My country does protest fanatical terrorism. We all know where we mutually stand on cowardly terrorist attacks. No need for me to carry a pitchfork or torch down the street. We're civilized, and we hope for a peaceful world. As far as organized Islam, we're not so sure, despite the protests from "peaceful" Muslims who nonetheless seem to stand back when such tragedies occur.
So we have little or no need to protest or self-police ourselves.
If our understanding of all your Islamic cultural standards are incorrect, it's certainly not going to be us uneducated heathen infidels who figure out the truth. It's up to you Muslims to educate us, to bring us around. And yet, whenever I am presented with, say, a YouTube Muslim preacher/imam, it's always the same line. There is not a universal message of peaceful tolerance for other religions, in fact, or if so, I have yet to see it. Please... be the first to help out here!
Next: you say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill
"you obviously have no idea what its like being a muslim in the states. people dont like you that dont know you just because of what you believe. and you want a group of people muslims, that are hated already because of what some terrorist did, to go out and protest?"
If you wish to find mutual societal respect in the West, you'll have to earn it through your self-policing actions. It also starts with a clearly demonstrated mutual respect for the belief systems of the host country you immigrate to, not an open attempt to co-opt our system of laws and insert your own!
How disrespectful is that? It would do Islam a great and positive PR service and societal benefit if you "moderate Muslims" were to intervene in a planned terrorist event and turn in the planners before they gleefully massacre more innocent Westerners and then gloat about it on their national TV media?
So why does Ahmahdinejad make such repulsive, combative and arrogant statements about the West and Israel, as the spokesman for a large Muslim nation?
Why has the simple act of self-policing or of open critical commentary on distorted Islamic principles never happened I wonder? I am certainly not alone in this concern or curiosity, frankly.
________________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill
please. i can protest just as much as you the only difference is people wouldnt listen to us because like you, they think they know enough about us already. calling us cowards? your just as much a coward if your not doing anything about it either.
And you know this how? I'm here commenting on constructive ways you could change the public's impression of Islam, and you just reject it, saying "Nope! It can't be done!". I suppose the current state of affairs is satisfactory for you, huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill
what its not your fault that terrorist did what they did and continue to do what theyre doing? its not my fault either.
Yes, frankly, to some degree, by your tacit approval and silence, it is partly your fault. In the end, if you do not help, your (I assume..) beloved ME homeland will vanish by their forcing of our hand militarily.
We won't like it, but when they light off a series of nuclear dirty bombs simultaneously in say LA and Chicago and NYC, and then make claim to it, we will not then sit back and try the diplomatic approach.
"Poof", the Middle East will be instantly "subdued" so it can never do such hideous things ever again. The culture will be decimated, and we will not then arrive to help out with money or aid. It will be a bit "hot" there for a while, for one thing, and all initial survivors, innocent or not, will not last the year. That's the choice your religion will have forced on us. You, not us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgnostic
A...haa...h!!! vis. the government's lack of intervention in the evolving of the mass's conventional indifference to physical reality. Let us repress the ideal revolt of the Masses. Science is only for specialists, and the masses respond with candor; I have no Idea what you are talking about.
the same place where you are. at home living your own life. who says that just because theyre muslim that muslims have to stop it. its not our fault their doing what theyre doing.
Answer: we Christian-based societies do not have a modern equivalent to the Islamic code of suicide, fatwah or of insultingly calling outsiders "infidels". There are simply not a profusion of Christian bombing fanatics presently in this world, or for the past several hundred years in fact, bent on the systematic and wholesale destruction of another belief system or an entire culture.
haha "code of suicide"? there is no code of suicide... and we call outsiders infadels? you obviously show you have no idea what your talking about...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
My country does protest fanatical terrorism. We all know where we mutually stand on cowardly terrorist attacks. No need for me to carry a pitchfork or torch down the street. We're civilized, and we hope for a peaceful world. As far as organized Islam, we're not so sure, despite the protests from "peaceful" Muslims who nonetheless seem to stand back when such tragedies occur.
awesome do u live in the united states of america? i guess OUR country is already doing its part then...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
So we have little or no need to protest or self-police ourselves.
i couldnt agree more, theres people already doing their part in our country for us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
If our understanding of all your Islamic cultural standards are incorrect, it's certainly not going to be us uneducated heathen infidels who figure out the truth. It's up to you Muslims to educate us, to bring us around. And yet, whenever I am presented with, say, a YouTube Muslim preacher/imam, it's always the same line. There is not a universal message of peaceful tolerance for other religions, in fact, or if so, I have yet to see it. Please... be the first to help out here!
ya we do, but your still on this suicide/infadel/oppressive deal.... after its already been explained to you over and over and over again....
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
Next: you say:
If you wish to find mutual societal respect in the West, you'll have to earn it through your self-policing actions. It also starts with a clearly demonstrated mutual respect for the belief systems of the host country you immigrate to, not an open attempt to co-opt our system of laws and insert your own!
How disrespectful is that? It would do Islam a great and positive PR service and societal benefit if you "moderate Muslims" were to intervene in a planned terrorist event and turn in the plannersbefore they gleefully massacre more innocent Westerners and then gloat about it on their national TV media?
what do you think? that all muslims know who the bad ones are that blow up buildings and kill people? haha your ridiculous, what makes you think that we WOULDNT turn in a terrorist? we just dont know who they are or where they are... give me a break..
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
So why does Ahmahdinejad make such repulsive, combative and arrogant statements about the West and Israel, as the spokesman for a large Muslim nation?
Why has the simple act of self-policing or of open critical commentary on distorted Islamic principles never happened I wonder? I am certainly not alone in this concern or curiosity, frankly.
i dont know who this is. but if making combatative statements he sounds like someone who wants to start something. which is not what islam teaches...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
And you know this how? I'm here commenting on constructive ways you could change the public's impression of Islam, and you just reject it, saying "Nope! It can't be done!". I suppose the current state of affairs is satisfactory for you, huh?
huh, and you couldnt do any of this yourself? if your worried about it so much then do something about it because frankly i cant afford to miss work because i have a full time job and im trying to save money to go to school. obviously you have more than enough time. instead of being "anti-islam" on this forum and talking crap all the time and putting our way of life down see what you can do to stop terrorism, because i gaurantee you no muslim terrorist are listening to you on this forum. just the good guys hearing you be all ignorant...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
Yes, frankly, to some degree, by your tacit approval and silence, it is partly your fault. In the end, if you do not help, your (I assume..) beloved ME homeland will vanish by their forcing of our hand militarily.
We won't like it, but when they light off a series of nuclear dirty bombs simultaneously in say LA and Chicago and NYC, and then make claim to it, we will not then sit back and try the diplomatic approach.
i hope you dont mean forcing innocent people out of their homes
good job
think about it. people over there are already pissed and your suggesting we make them even more pissed by putting ourselves in their business. that wars been going on forever, but your right why not add to the bloodshed and give them a piece of our mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
"Poof", the Middle East will be instantly "subdued" so it can never do such hideous things ever again. The culture will be decimated, and we will not then arrive to help out with money or aid. It will be a bit "hot" there for a while, for one thing, and all initial survivors, innocent or not, will not last the year. That's the choice your religion will have forced on us. You, not us.
you think the culture is just in the middle east?
you see its people like you that think lets just get rid of this by getting rid of the middle east, problem solved, NO, cant you see from whats happened in the past THAT JUST MAKES THINGS WORSE
wow, and your complaining about innocent people being punished or killed?
the the choice your obviously making...
ugh... "quite frankly" ive come to the conclusion you dont know what your talking about and you think you know everything. your never wrong and you always have something to say... you sounds like someone who just cant admit they are wrong, which i can almost bet, has never happened, especially when a muslim tells you something about the faith they practice everyday. ive told you again and again, suicide is not part of islam. its what terrorist do. and yeet, somehow your still right... you just cant be wrong can you? well i got news rifleman, your wrong about islam.
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Tactical Response, early and often! Islam's sunset.
