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Fine. I'll take your word for it.
Now, I will ask you the same question I asked of Sukrill: Why is it that the Muslim majority of moderates cannot get some sort of control over your more radical members who seem set on destroying not just non-Muslims - but in reality - their very own religion with their terrorist actions?
You can post all you want on CD. Americans do not care about islamic websites. You spend a lot of effort trying to show islam in a positive light. You may have better luck in your efforts if you actually answer the hard questions posed by westeners, such as the one above my post. All I ever see is the same regurgitated jibberish and beat around the bush antics.
Just admit the truth. Islam is hell bent on world domination, and you people are incapable of accepting alternate theories on religion. The main difference between you and Sukrill, and others of your type, is that you are not open to opposing thoughts.
If it makes you feel better, I don't believe that any religion is the word of God. So, it's not that I'm not going to follow Islam - it's that I'm not going to follow any religion. I don't even know if there is a god or not... Sorry!
Muslims are assured for several reasons that the Qur’an is indeed the Word of God. Here are some of the reasons.
This is all very well and very understandable... every belief system has to have some kind of proof, even if the only people who see the proof are the believers.
What I have trouble with is understanding why some believe that this is the only path to God/goodness/paradise. At the end of the day, this is a belief system and there is a very big possibilitiy that it is incorrect, just as there is a possibility that every other religion is incorrect.
There is no doubt that those who did not read the Koran do not know that the Word of God...
This comment kind of hints that you aren't interested in debate, even though you say you are. My question to you is this: why must you keep starting these proselytizing threads? Haven't you realized that you're only going to get the same responses in this one as you did in all the others?
1. Physical incapacity. The prophet was physically incapable to write the Qur’an. History has him as an unlettered man who could not write anything more than his own name. How could he write a book?
He got someone else to...
2. Sincerity. The prophet was morally constrained to tell the truth about the origin of the Qur’an. He was noted to be so honest and trustworthy that even his enemies called him al-Amin (the trustworthy). Moreover, he suffered persecution, refused offers to compromise, and maintained his message for a period of twenty-three years. Historians of religion have to conclude that he was sincere.
So did joseph smith.
3. Psychology. The Qur’an speaks to the prophet, commands him, and even criticizes him. Such contents do not point to the prophet as the self-conscious author. On the other hand, the author declares himself to be the creator of the heavens and the earth.
So someone pretending to be god, is proof of god..
4. History. The prophet was incapable of writing the Qur’an. The Qur’an details items of history which were not known to the prophet or his contemporaries. And independent studies confirm that the Qur’an was true in what it said.
So muhammad was a real guy, so he couldn't have lied..
5. Prophecy. The Qur’an speaks prophetically, detailing what the future holds. Then the future unfolds exactly as foretold. Who could author such a book?
The quran predicted the iphone?... no.. The accuracy of the Qur'an is not remarkable. All of its accurate points can be explained by simple observation of nature or by selective interpretation of scriptures.
6. Science. The Qur’an draws attention to a wide range of physical phenomena in order to teach moral lessons. The statements were not meant to teach science. Yet modern scientists are amazed at the accuracy of these statements. For example, the Qur’an said things about the growth and development of the human embryo which could not be studied without the use of a microscope. Dr. Keith Moore was professor and chairman of the Department of Anatomy at the University of Toronto. After reviewing the Qur’anic statements he said: ""I am amazed at the accuracy of these statements which were already made in the 7th century AD."" Such knowledge in the Qur’an points to God as its source.
If occasional scientific accuracy shows overall accuracy of the Qur'an, the same conclusion must be granted to the Bible, Zend Avesta, and several other works from other religions, all of which can make the same claims to scientific accuracy.
7. Consistency. The Qur’an challenges skeptics to find errors in it, which, if found, would disprove its divine claim. But no one has yet been able to point to a real error in it. Islamic Science: Does Islamic literature contain scientific miracles? "Muslims cite alleged scientific miracles in the Qur'an and Hadiths to try and prove a divine origin of their faith. In this short study of Islamic science, these claims have been debunked. Clearly there was no supernatural force giving Muhammad scientific information. While the Muslims argued that advanced scientific knowledge in the Qur'an is a sign of divine origin, the rational thinker points out that the numerous and obvious scientific errors point to a wholly human origin."
8. Inimitability. A unique feature of the Qur’an is that no one is able to produce a book that would match its beauty, eloquence and wisdom. The Qur’an itself challenges humankind to produce even a chapter like it. But no one has been able to do it. "From this distant vantage point, the Earth might not seem of particular interest. But for us, it's different. Consider again that dot. That's here, that's home, that's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand. It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known."
What I have trouble with is understanding why some believe that this is the only path to God/goodness/paradise. At the end of the day, this is a belief system and there is a very big possibilitiy that it is incorrect, just as there is a possibility that every other religion is incorrect.
Because, Spidr, to question the Qu'Ran is to invite a fatwah on yourself and your family. An effective means of managed discipline and obedience to be sure! Dedication through Terror!
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Originally Posted by Fred314X
My question to you is this: why must you keep starting these proselytizing threads? Haven't you realized that you're only going to get the same responses in this one as you did in all the others?
Yes Fred, but remember: this is all as directed from their imams,and you don't want to openly criticize or debate them, now do you? That's precisely why, given the failings of the human character, multiplied by the greed and arrogance inherent in any blindered theocracy, they are all destined to eventual abject failure, as so religions and mythologies many have in the brief history of human arrogance.
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Originally Posted by Gplex
[some well made counter-points by Gplex, with some of my own comments... rflmn]
5. Prophecy. The Qur’an speaks prophetically, detailing what the future holds. Then the future unfolds exactly as foretold. Who could author such a book?
The quran predicted the iphone?... no.. The accuracy of the Qur'an is not remarkable. All of its accurate points can be explained by simple observation of nature or by selective interpretation of scriptures.
Agreed. Muslims search for some coincidental ambiguous prophesy, though these do not agree with the similarly ambiguous Christian biblical prophecies, which should be identical given their identical original godly source... Hmmm...
6. Science. The Qur’an draws attention to a wide range of physical phenomena in order to teach moral lessons. The statements were not meant to teach science. Yet [a very few already-biased..] modern scientists are amazed at the accuracy of these statements.
A "wide range of phenomena": really? A list of these astounding achievements would be interesting for our polite and thoughtful consideration. BUT NOTE: not very many scientists find this amazing. You suffer from the same affliction of another frequent Christian poster here; that of GORE™: Gross Over-Reaching Exaggerations on minor scientific speculations or discoveries. As in: a credible scientist finds something minor they speculate about, and suddenly it's God's own word, and being discovered and agreed to all over the globe. Thus proving God. Nope. Sorry. Too thin. It's...
"Lying for Christ or god or Allah", for sure.
For example, the Qur’an said things about the growth and development of the human embryo which could not be studied without the use of a microscope. Dr. Keith Moore was professor and chairman of the Department of Anatomy at the University of Toronto. After reviewing the Qur’anic statements he said: ""I am amazed at the accuracy of these statements which were already made in the 7th century AD."" Such knowledge in the Qur’an points to God as its source.
Or to simple coincidence. Or good guesswork. That's all. (Suggestion: look up and carefully read the word: "unambiguous" and it's obvious application in scientific evidence and conclusions. Then report back to us on it's meaning!)
Islam is now known for being in a scientific and educational backwater, suppressing any critical thinking or open debate. Example: I just heard this morning that in Somalia the local fanatical Muslim government has now taken a London based radio broadcast off the air for not being Islamic in it's programming.
If occasional scientific accuracy shows overall accuracy of the Qur'an, the same conclusion must be granted to the Bible, Zend Avesta, and several other works from other religions, all of which can make the same claims to scientific accuracy.
Q: how about the accuracy of my 1980s biology text book as regards scientific prediction and accuracy? Why is it so openly dismissed?
7. Consistency. The Qur’an challenges skeptics to find errors in it, which, if found, would disprove its divine claim. But no one has yet been able to point to a real error in it.
"Muslims cite alleged scientific miracles in the Qur'an and Hadiths to try and prove a divine origin of their faith. In this short study of Islamic science, these claims have been debunked. Clearly there was no supernatural force giving Muhammad scientific information. While the Muslims argued that advanced scientific knowledge in the Qur'an is a sign of divine origin,
...the rational thinker points out that the numerous and obvious scientific errors [in the Qu'Ran] point to a wholly human origin."
Thanks for the Sagan video. Very thought-provoking indeed. Sagan's sagacity is apparent to anyone with an open mind. That would seem to immediately eliminate the devoutly Muslim. Specifically...
This short speech is far more beauty, eloquence and wisdom then the quran.
Dr. Carl Sagan was an honest open-minded and inquisitive man of great philosophical value, with a true sense of curiosity and eloquence. Exactly what Islam protests.
No matter. The devoutly dedicated will continue on their personal pathway of blindered and violently disciplined obedience to The Word.Barring humane intervention at the level of their childrens' education, this will continue until a more tragic end times is forced on the world by Islam.
Last edited by rifleman; 06-14-2010 at 12:13 PM..
Reason: edits and clarifications.
1. Physical incapacity. The prophet was physically incapable to write the Qur’an. History has him as an unlettered man who could not write anything more than his own name. How could he write a book?
First and foremost, there is pretty good evidence in the Hadith that Muhammad actually could write after all. There is, for example, this famous hadith from Sahih Bukhari:
When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, the Prophet said: "Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray." 'Umar said: "The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Qur'an, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us." The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, "Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray," while the others said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me." Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their quarrel and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing a statement for them.
Sahih al Bukhari Arabic-English Volume 9 hadith number 468 and Volume 7 hadith 573
Second, the Qur’an was never actually committed to a written form as a “book” until after Muhammad had died. It was instead an oral revelation that he spoke rather than wrote.
The first written compilation occurred under the auspices of Abu Bakr, when the order went out to collect the scattered palm leaves, animal bones and parchments upon which the ayaa and suwar of the Qur’an had been written (by others) for collection into one volume. This was inspired by a battle in which so many companions had died that it was feared the Qur’an would be lost, and was met with some resistance since Muhammad had himself never collected the Qur’an into a single volume.
Still later, several competing variations of the Qur’an were collected and standardized during the Uthmanic rescension. All variants were then destroyed and standard Qur’ans were then distributed to the faithful.
So it appears that this “physical incapacity” argument is more than merely weak. It is irrelevant since nobody ever pretended Muhamad had “written a book” in the first place.
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2. Sincerity. The prophet was morally constrained to tell the truth about the origin of the Qur’an. He was noted to be so honest and trustworthy that even his enemies called him al-Amin (the trustworthy). Moreover, he suffered persecution, refused offers to compromise, and maintained his message for a period of twenty-three years. Historians of religion have to conclude that he was sincere.
Sincerity only requires that the speaker believe that what he is saying is true. It does not require that what he is saying actually is true.
There is very good reason to believe that Muhammad honestly thought his ‘revelations” were from Allah. That does not require him to actually have been correct on that issue.
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3. Psychology. The Qur’an speaks to the prophet, commands him, and even criticizes him. Such contents do not point to the prophet as the self-conscious author. On the other hand, the author declares himself to be the creator of the heavens and the earth.
All of these features are fairly diagnostic of paranoid schizophrenia. Such patients often hear voices that are critical and commanding, and that claim to be extranormal or supernatural in origin.
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4. History. The prophet was incapable of writing the Qur’an. The Qur’an details items of history which were not known to the prophet or his contemporaries. And independent studies confirm that the Qur’an was true in what it said.
There are in fact no “details of history” contained in the Qur’an that could not have been known to Muhammad and the companions. The claim that they “were not” is idle speculation.
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5. Prophecy. The Qur’an speaks prophetically, detailing what the future holds. Then the future unfolds exactly as foretold. Who could author such a book?
For “divine revelation,” the Qur’an is strikingly devoid of prophecy. The few places where prophecy is claimed are invariable couched in terms so ambiguous they are easily subject to post hoc interpretation, much like the Centuries of Nostradamus.
It is also important to note that we actually have no copies of the Qur’an that are older than the few “prophetic” events they are asserted to contain, making them vulnerable to later insertions.
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6. Science. The Qur’an draws attention to a wide range of physical phenomena in order to teach moral lessons. The statements were not meant to teach science. Yet modern scientists are amazed at the accuracy of these statements. For example, the Qur’an said things about the growth and development of the human embryo which could not be studied without the use of a microscope. Dr. Keith Moore was professor and chairman of the Department of Anatomy at the University of Toronto. After reviewing the Qur’anic statements he said: ""I am amazed at the accuracy of these statements which were already made in the 7th century AD."" Such knowledge in the Qur’an points to God as its source.
The Qur’an contains no true statements of “scientific fact” that were not already common knowledge at the time it was written. Specifically in the case of “embryology,” the Qur’an is not only factually in error, but it is wrong in exactly the same way that the Greek physician Galen was wrong, indicating that the Qur’an borrowed Galen’s ideas which were current at the time.
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7. Consistency. The Qur’an challenges skeptics to find errors in it, which, if found, would disprove its divine claim. But no one has yet been able to point to a real error in it.
Hoopoes cannot talk. Mountains do not prevent earthquakes. Ants are not capable of third person empathy, and the heavens are not seven solid domes.
There are four errors right there.
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8. Inimitability. A unique feature of the Qur’an is that no one is able to produce a book that would match its beauty, eloquence and wisdom. The Qur’an itself challenges humankind to produce even a chapter like it. But no one has been able to do it.
This, the “produce a Qur’an like it” challenge, is by definition a farce, since there are no objective criteria for judging the competition. As such, Muslims can always subjectively deny any book is “like it” by whatever criteria they choose.
I would on the other hand take the challenge further based on a single criterion that everyone would likely agree was relevant and important. I would assert that I have hundred of books on my shelf that are not just “like” the Qur’an but are superior to it; they are actually true.
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These eight reasons together form a strong cumulative case in favor of the Qur’an’s divine origin. Hence Muslims can be confident that the belief of Islam, which is based on the Qur’an, is true.
Sadly, these “eight reasons” are little more than rationalizations, and not very good ones at that. Most are purely subjective, and those that are not are simply not true.
You can post all you want on CD. Americans do not care about islamic websites. You spend a lot of effort trying to show islam in a positive light. You may have better luck in your efforts if you actually answer the hard questions posed by westeners, such as the one above my post. All I ever see is the same regurgitated jibberish and beat around the bush antics.
Just admit the truth. Islam is hell bent on world domination, and you people are incapable of accepting alternate theories on religion. The main difference between you and Sukrill, and others of your type, is that you are not open to opposing thoughts.
This is my biggest beef with them: Their desire to dominate the entire world. Even if they really were all peace, love, and flowers as they love to proclaim, this aspect alone would still place me in opposition to them. They are not happy to just be Islam. They want you to be a part of Islam, me to be a part, everyone to be a part. This is why I think eventually a conflict will be forced: the modern world vs. the Islam world. They will force it to confrontation.
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The Qu'Ran: A logical and philosophical FAIL.
