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Old 08-09-2011, 06:15 PM
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 12,531,142 times
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A troubling perspective on The Koram is that it's apparently time-bound; a document that can, and has been, "corrected" over time to reflect changes in the needs, desires and socio-political goals of the Muslim administration to suit their current intentions. Whatever those are. (world domination...)

Here's an interesting discussion that unveils & clarifies the problem, coming from a once proud Islamic apologist:

The Problem of Abrogation in the Quran

Heck; at least a devoted Christian sticks to his or her guns, as it were, though their intransigence is often befuddling. On that note, as it directly relates to the general topic of Abrogation, I happened to hear, this very morning on the BBC broadcast "The World", a discussion about how the "other" major Christian denominations such as Baptists, Protestants and all the various Evangelical extremists [as in: beyond the apparently clear-headed Roman Catholic Church] have finally come round to accepting the obvious facts we know as Evolution.

This is expected to begin to officially filter down to the local church level, in the form of a blushing statement sorta like "Well of course we Christians always knew it was right; you just didn't understand why we debated it. We knew it all along!" sort of a late-add clean-the-rotting-cream-pie-offa-my-face statement.

After all, the commentator noted, only a truly blind and stubborn literalist could, in light of a logical questioning process [science] which has created modern DNA genotyping, geological and paleontological dating, and all the other reproducible and peer-reviewed finds we've made over the years, actually deny that Evolution has and is happening.

But it seems that the Muslims can apparently just change their official minds [i.e.: Abrogate..] as a time-honored and approved/official process as time goes on because even with their predominantly ill-educated minion followers, the truth will eventually slip in and befuddle their goals of cultural domination.

Afer all, yah can't hid the durned truth forever, now can yah?

Enjoy, and salam alaikum!
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Old 08-09-2011, 06:41 PM
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Islam isn't different from any other religion. The qu'ran, bible, and any other religious text, whether officially or unofficially, has been twisted to suit a group of people.
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:27 PM
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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No need to defend anything here. Farooq Ibrahim is not the most reliable source to gather information about Islam from. While he did quote Surah 2 :106 he sort of forgot to mention that when taken in context it is not speaking of the Qur'an. Surah 2 is probably the most misused Surah, partially because to understand a single ayyat, one must have a fair understanding of the entire Surah, which is the longest Surah in the Qur'an. However Let me put 106 in context with a few ayyat that precede and follow 106.

103. If they had kept their Faith and guarded themselves from evil, far better had been the reward from their Lord, if they but knew!
104. O ye of Faith! Say not (to the Messenger. words of ambiguous import, but words of respect; and hearken (to him): To those without Faith is a grievous punishment.
105. It is never the wish of those without Faith among the People of the Book, nor of the Pagans, that anything good should come down to you from your Lord. But Allah will choose for His special Mercy whom He will - for Allah is Lord of grace abounding.
106. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
107. Knowest thou not that to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Him ye have neither patron nor helper.
108. Would ye question your Messenger as Moses was questioned of old? but whoever changeth from Faith to Unbelief, Hath strayed without doubt from the even way.

109. Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could Turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become Manifest unto them: But forgive and overlook, Till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah Hath power over all things.
110. And be steadfast in prayer and regular in charity: And whatever good ye send forth for your souls before you, ye shall find it with Allah. for Allah sees Well all that ye do.
111. And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."
This is in reference to what has been revealed in the past, all previous scripture. Allaah(swt) is stating he has not changed or altered the past scriptures he gave to all previous Prophets(PBUT). the message is still the same. It is the same message, but a new format. In other words in the past the message was sent to specific people in a specific time and in a manner specific for them. The Qur'an is the same message, but now in a format applicable to all people. Ayyat 106 is not speaking of changing the Qur'an or reinterpreting it to suit the times.

Just on a side note Farooq has some strange ideas in relation to what his testomony says for instance:
Being a Muslim I believed that I would end up in heaven;
Every Muslim I know myself included, would never say that. We believe only Allaah(swt) knows who will enter Jannah and if we state we know somebody who will including if that person is us, it is arrogance and a sin. While we do believe every person who dies as a Muslim will go to heaven. We do not know who will die as a Muslim. Something can harden the heart of even one who believes he is a good Muslim and he will loose heaven.

Then were he said
Why four books to present the "gospel" and not one, as Quran teaches of one gospel.
Even the most uneducated Muslim knows the Injil (Gospel given to Jesus) is not the 4 Gospels in the Bible. Jesus(as) never saw or read those. He knew the Injil not the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. There is and always has been 1 injil. The 4 gospels in the NT have never been called the Injil

When Muslims read anything by Farooq Ibrahim (He wrote 3 other rather long "Testimonies") each makes him look less like having ever been a Muslim.

I only ask all read and verify anything read and take the words of no man as fact without proving them to your self.

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 08-09-2011 at 08:05 PM..
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