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Woodrow LI: I had gotten the impression that you were more capable of independent thought than most of the other Muslims on the forum. I am sorry to see that you are going along with the general Ayatollah-approved, reprehensible attitude toward the creator of the cartoon. Very disheartening.
Woodrow is an erudite reasonable articulate and very reasonable apologist (or at least explainer) for Islam. But at the end of the day still an apologist for Islam. I rather think the bad feeling generated really by Dubhya and his mob -handed invasion of Iraq and BinLaden and his absurd guerilla war about Infidel troops on sacred Saudi land (if that was what it was really about) might have been a bit alleviated by the co -operation in Libya and the shamefaced western reaction to immediately blaming the Oslo bomb on Al Quaida.
At the same time, there is this basic feeling of wary hostility which is not just down to Islam or even religion, but between all 'different' groups. Falling into a frothing death - threatening rage at perhaps disrespectful (so they were - cartoons often are) cartoons is not acceptable. Not in this world.
The muslim people and the clerics who take it upon themselves to stand up and preach to them should decide whether they are going to denounce immoderate overreaction to admittedly insensitive actions or to on the whole throw themselves behind their own, good, bad or very bad. And maybe Woodrow has to decide where he stands on this, too.
Now, to get back on - topic, while Woodrow has argued (perhaps as a convert rather than one brought up in the faith perhaps) that no-one - even a muslim who had deconverted - is really at any risk of harm, there are those ex - muslims who seem to think differently
"Those of us who have come forward with our names and photographs represent countless others who are unable or unwilling to do so because of the threats faced by those considered ‘apostates’ – punishable by death in countries under Islamic law."
That's from the link given in the OP. Now, we have seen honour killings, and some reports of other 'honour' retribution. While there are too often used to 'bash' Islam, it does tend to indicate that muslim society is not so easy - going and tolerant of those deemed not to be observing the rules, written or unwritten as Islamic apologists would like to claim.
Sorry but they do not receive an automatic death Sentence. That only applies if the apostasy is accompanied by treason to the nation they live in. About the only country thatapplies the Death sentence for apostasy is Iran and it has been a number of years since they invoked it, even in the case of an Army colonel, Hamid Pourmad, who became a Pentocastal Minister. He is still alive and well in Iran and is pastor of an Assembly of God Church in Tehran.
Depends on whether you're referring to a death sentence proclaimed by a nation or by a religious entity. A friend, who was all over the internet for the last several years as a spokesperson for Islam, has received several death threats since leaving the faith.
Could be I've got it wrong but I understand all that Woodrow is saying is that he can understand the emotional response to the cartoons but does not see them as an excuse for the actions that followed.
While I do not feel the censure is loud enough or public enough, I did do just a brief internet search for the same by other Muslims and admit it does exist but not covered by the media at all.
Why this is so is up for speculation.
Depends on whether you're referring to a death sentence proclaimed by a nation or by a religious entity. A friend, who was all over the internet for the last several years as a spokesperson for Islam, has received several death threats since leaving the faith.
"has received several death threats since leaving the faith" As was friend of mine. She really believed that she would be harmed when she left Islam. Not because of Islam as a whole but in the local communitly that she belonged to. They were really far out there?
Could be I've got it wrong but I understand all that Woodrow is saying is that he can understand the emotional response to the cartoons but does not see them as an excuse for the actions that followed.
While I do not feel the censure is loud enough or public enough, I did do just a brief internet search for the same by other Muslims and admit it does exist but not covered by the media at all.
Why this is so is up for speculation.
Could be you got it right and I misread Woodrow. I bin busy but will re- read the thread.
Depends on whether you're referring to a death sentence proclaimed by a nation or by a religious entity. A friend, who was all over the internet for the last several years as a spokesperson for Islam, has received several death threats since leaving the faith.
On the other side of the coin I receive almost daily death threats for reverting to Islam.
These are all the thoughts and words of individuals, not the teachings of any religious group. People do react strongly about what affects them emotionally and often with violence.
these seem to be human short comings, not the following of any specific ideology. Ideology is to often the excuse, not the reason.
Crowd and mob mentality is a case where the thoughts of the group brings out the worse in the individual and causes responces none of the individuals would do on their own.
I have stated many times in here that I understand how the actions over the catoons took place that does not mean I support or condone them. It is a case of group angery that which when started rolls like a trainout of control. It does not take any control and the fact it becomes a riot indicates control has been lost. the tethers of personal responsibility get severed and what was once an angry mob becomes an out of control Frankensteinian Monster.
It happens when ever there is an action that elicits a strong emotional feeling in a loosely connected group. The perceived and immediate cause can be any strong emotion, fear, hate, anger, etc. The result is the same. Be it people trampling others in a movies theater when somebody calls "Fire" or a feeling of anger over a cartoon.
The last such incidence occured in France. yet did not quite bring out the media. Perhaps the action would have brought more intention to the media if the mob had bee Muslim. LINK (http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/****-christ-slashed-by-french-catholics/ - broken link)
Mob mentality is not a reflection on any religion, Socio-economic group or any other group-entity. It is the result of loss of control.
Could be I've got it wrong but I understand all that Woodrow is saying is that he can understand the emotional response to the cartoons but does not see them as an excuse for the actions that followed.
While I do not feel the censure is loud enough or public enough, I did do just a brief internet search for the same by other Muslims and admit it does exist but not covered by the media at all.
Why this is so is up for speculation.
I hope that people see it that way, that is my intent.
So? Some wacko saying they're going to kill you does not justify your words or deeds or your archaic, misogynistic, hateful religion.
bla bla bla terrorism bla bla bla hateful bla bla bla turban bla bla bla veil bla bla bla osama bin laden bla bla bla archaic bla bla bla muhammad bla bla bla iraq bla bla bla 9/11 bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla
This is pretty much all I see when people criticize Islam. BLA BLA BLA.
So? Some wacko saying they're going to kill you does not justify your words or deeds or your archaic, misogynistic, hateful religion.
The point was a wacko is a wacko. It makes no difference what faith they follow or don't follow. A wacko is a wacko and all wackos are the same no matter what they call themselves. It does not take any belief system to make a wacko a wacko. Wackos come in every flavor possible.
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