'Believe' Stronger than 'Submit'? (heaven, verses, punishment, Abraham)

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Continuum

The point is when a person submits to Allah he is a Muslim in general.
On day one a person decides to declare the Shahada and that declaration is also a declaration that she/he is submitting to Allah. Once a person submit to Allah, that is permanent until the person become an apostate voluntarily or commit an unpardonable sin.

1. Note on the first day all he did was submission in his mind by declaring the Shahada. As such he is merely a Muslim in general. There are people to declare and affirm the Shahada and thereafter do perform the 5 pillars of Islam or do not perform it diligently.

2. To be a Muslim [specific] one must perform the 5 pillars of Islam [pilgrimage is not compulsory] diligently and consistently for at least for some reasonable period.

It is obvious there is a difference between the 'Muslim_ness' between the person in 1 and the person in 2.
Agree?

A Muslim [general] is one who had declared the Shahada and entered into a covenant with Allah.

A Muslim [Specific] is definitely a Muslim [general] but he has more qualities in performing the 5 pillars of Islam diligently and consistently for a reasonable period.

Agree to the above?

No. Both are Muslims but one is weak in eeman and the other is strong in eeman. Both are both Muslimeen and Mu'mineen. Anyone who only believes but does not submit is only believer (mu'min) in the beginning rather than Muslim. Anyone who does not believe Allah and His messengers will not submit to Allah.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Khalif

Then is a Mu'min related to another religion than Islam? If yes, why, and if no, why not?

"Mu'min' is a specific term in the Quran therefore it is only related to Islam.

But the general principle of self-improvement underlying the concept of 'mu'min' i.e. progressive believe from low [general, loose] to high [specific] is generic to all human being in every aspect of human activities.

In the NT, one example of progress from submission [surrender] to a higher stage is the following;

In Matthew, a rich young man asks Jesus what actions bring eternal life. First Jesus advises the man to obey the commandments. When the man responds that he already observes them, and asks what else he can do, Jesus adds:

If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_...rich_young_man

The above implies if the rich young man wants to progress from submission stage [obeying commands etc.] he has to do more.

The underlying self-improvement underlying the concept of mu'min as in Islam exists in all religions.
In the Eastern religions the spiritual progress of a believer [submitter where applicable] is more detailed, complex and more efficient to drive one to a higher spiritual quotient. This processes changes the wiring of the neurons in the brain and effect real spiritual improvements.
The spiritual self-improvement potential in the Quran in general is kindergartenish.

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Continuum

"Mu'min' is a specific term in the Quran therefore it is only related to Islam.

Then why won't you label those related to Islam as Mu'mineen but Muslims?

In the case of rich young man, Jesus had advised him to obey the commandments (submit) and then give his wealth to poor people (a piller in Islam). Therefore, the young man had to progress from believing to submitting to achieve spiritual life.

Another example that a Muslim (who also believes) is better than a Mu'min!
Submitting after believing is better than mere believing.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Khalif

Then why won't you label those related to Islam as Mu'mineen but Muslims?

In the case of rich young man, Jesus had advised him to obey the commandments (submit) and then give his wealth to poor people (a piller in Islam). Therefore, the young man had to progress from believing to submitting to achieve spiritual life.

Another example that a Muslim (who also believes) is better than a Mu'min!
Submitting after believing is better than mere believing.

Btw, the Christians do not use the term 'submit' but 'surrender'. Once a Christian surrender, s/he is always in a state of surrendering but to progress in his spirituality he has do to do what is necessary as related to believe-proper.

Note this OP, 'believe' is stronger than 'submit.'
By stronger I meant having greater spiritual qualities as a human being.

Submit [1] is driven by the 'lower' brain and is triggered by primal emotions.
As I had stated submit can be driven by fears, threats and other emotions, thus not necessary based on 'believe.'
If there is any believe preceding 'submit' then it is only low level believe not believe-proper.

There is no need to submit again after believe [loose, lower] because one has already submitted earlier. Once a Muslim has submitted he will not stop submitting unless he becomes an apostate. What happens is a Muslims may put some extra emphasis in his submission.

In 'believe [2]' one relies on the 'higher' faculty of the brain and progresses to the higher states of belief.
Thus when one is acting on 'believing-proper' one is using the faculty of the higher brain with some degree of reasoning.

Because believe-proper relies on the higher levels of the brain [more human], believe-proper has higher spiritual quality than submission which rely on the lower brain [near animal].

The highest level activity in the human mind is reasoning [3] which driven by the reason faculty which can be low-level reason or high level reason.
Those who submit [strict] and believe [strict] may use reason but only low-level reason [submission -use the lowest levels of reason and/or none of it].
A rational person who has justified true knowledge use sufficient high level reason, e.g. in Science, philosophy and other rational knowledge.

The above is what is happening in reality with human beings.
Submission is a very low level human activity which is almost a near animal driven action.
This is why higher spiritual endeavors like Buddhism do not rely on 'submission' but rely on the term 'detachment' and thus there is no element of degrading the human esteem.

When you keep insisting and focusing on 'submission' you are in fact dragging and hindering the spiritual progress of the person.
When one focus on 'believing-proper' at least it is a sign of progress albeit short of critical thinking proper.
This is why believing-proper enable a Muslim [submitted] to progress to be a Mumim, Mushin or Muttagin.

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Continuum

When you keep insisting and focusing on 'submission' you are in fact dragging and hindering the spiritual progress of the person.

It is you who has only 'submission' in mind of a Muslim but not his believing. This is why you keep insisting that the wandering Arabs were Muslims even though they did not believe. Now you accuse me of doing the same when I have never done so.

When one focus on 'believing-proper' at least it is a sign of progress albeit short of critical thinking proper.
This is why believing-proper enable a Muslim [submitted] to progress to be a Mumim, Mushin or Muttagin.

Here again you are assuming that a Muslim is not a beliver (Mu'min), does not have taqwa (is not a Muttaqi) and does not do good to others (is not Mu'hsin) b.ut only submits. Do you even understand what you are doing here and accusing me of doing the same instead?

When are you going to comprehend that a Muslim must obey all the commands which include having eeman, doing good to others and having taqwa?

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Khalif

It is you who has only 'submission' in mind of a Muslim but not his believing. This is why you keep insisting that the wandering Arabs were Muslims even though they did not believe. Now you accuse me of doing the same when I have never done so.

Here again you are assuming that a Muslim is not a beliver (Mu'min), does not have taqwa (is not a Muttaqi) and does not do good to others (is not Mu'hsin) b.ut only submits. Do you even understand what you are doing here and accusing me of doing the same instead?

When are you going to comprehend that a Muslim must obey all the commands which include having eeman, doing good to others and having taqwa?

You misunderstood my point.
I wont' waste time explaining, suggest you reread my point again to understand what I was stating.

One glaring point is;
NO! it is not me who stated [in my own words] the wandering Arabs were Muslims, it was your Allah in 49:17 who stated the wandering Arabs were Muslims as they had embraced Islam. I am just repeating what your Allah said in 49:17.

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Continuum

You misunderstood my point.
I wont' waste time explaining, suggest you reread my point again to understand what I was stating.

One glaring point is;
NO! it is not me who stated [in my own words] the wandering Arabs were Muslims, it was your Allah in 49:17 who stated the wandering Arabs were Muslims as they had embraced Islam. I am just repeating what your Allah said in 49:17.

Those are not the words of Allah in that verse of the Arabic Qur'an but your words and the words of some ignorant translators of this verse that you have been clinging on.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Khalif

Those are not the words of Allah in that verse of the Arabic Qur'an but your words and the words of some ignorant translators of this verse that you have been clinging on.

There is no issue with the translated words.
Point is you got in wrong by not understanding context in the loose and strict sense of the term 'believe'.

I have tried to explain to you [with many examples] the correct understanding, i.e. the epistemological perspective of what is believe in its range of meaning in the strict and loose sense.

Here is the example I posted earlier re 'What is Believe and it range of meanings?'.

Example of degrees of believe.
A. Believe - loose and of low degree
1. Suppose I recommend you to take tonic X [new to you] for good health and feeling extraordinary.
2. Obviously you will have doubts, but because I am a nutrition-scientist and have credibility, you believe [have some trust and faith]me on that basis.
3. However note this believe is in the loose sense and is of very low degree.

B. Believe - strict and high degree - BELIEVER
4. Then you take tonic X every day for one year and will continue to do so because of the positive results you have achieved.
5. You are feeling good, your doctor confirmed through all sorts of testing whatever ailments you had in the past have disappeared and improved in other aspects of your health.
6. Now that you have personal feel very good and empirical testing has proven your good health, you will declare 'Now I am a BELIEVER of the potential of tonic X as an excellent health product'.

Can you see the difference between scenario A and B?
Surely you have to because it is very obvious in our common experiences in many aspects of our life.

When something new is introduced to you, you either believe or reject it based on existing knowledge, feelings, instinct or intuition.
If you believe at the first instance it cannot only be in the loose form and a low degree belief.

The above scenario A and B is the same with a believer in any religion and thus between a Muslim [loose] and Islam.
The above is the reality of human nature and should be the same for Muslims.

Get it?

the words of some ignorant translators of this verse that you have been clinging on.

I have refer to 46 English translators re 49:14 & 17.
45 of the English translators agree with my views which is supported by extensive verifications and justifications.
You relied on one translator against the other 45.
Your 1 against 45 is very telling and I suggest you reread the Quran and make sure it is not less than 50 times because it is a matter of eternal life or could be eternal hell for you on Judgment Day.

[Khalif]

Continuum,

The loose terms and strict terms are only in your head. The terms in the Qur'an are the precise terms.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Khalif

Continuum,

The loose terms and strict terms are only in your head. The terms in the Qur'an are the precise terms.

I have always given detail justifications, examples and references from the Quran.
On the other hand you are simply waving statements from your head without justifications at all.

The loose term and strict terms are in accordance with the context of the Quran.

In the Quran [I have provided verses], the performance of a Muslim [loose] are ranked in accordance to their deeds and will be accorded rewards based on the ranking they have achieved.

In addition, in the Quran [verses provided somewhere], Allah exhorted Muslims to compete [race, vie] with one another.
Such competition and ranking of Muslims indicate there are strict sense of a Muslim and a loose sense of a Muslim. If all the Muslims are the same in the loose sense, then all will get the same reward regardless of their performance.