Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Here is an interesting take on the reformation of Islam.
Although there might be other reasons for the violence perpetrated by some Islamists, Hirsi Ali argues that the root cause of this violence is the Islamic texts and hadiths.
Without the proper reformation of Islam, we cannot effectively deal with global terrorism and its related ills.
The existence of such texts, the author suggests, allows Muslim extremists to act on them on an ad hoc basis to justify their misdeeds.
Although she acknowledges the unpopularity of her arguments, she says they are not far-fetched. “My argument is that it is foolish to insist, as our leaders habitually do, that the violent acts of radical Islamists can be divorced from the religious ideas that inspire them.”
...
...
While Islamic apologists enjoy the support of some politicians as well as well-endowed religious organizations such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the true reformers like Hirsi Ali have been unfairly targeted by various Islamic groups, demonized, labeled as intolerant, and often threatened with violent retribution. Islamic zealots are free and steadfast in their misdeeds and are allowed to speak and brand their critics as bigots and hatemongers. They try to silence their critics and stigmatize their reformist views. We can no longer afford to look the other way and refuse to link the violence to the core beliefs of Islam, Ayaan Hirsi Ali affirms. “We cannot in good conscience give Islam a free pass on the ground of cultural sensitivity.”
I don't think it can happen. Off the top of my head:
Take out Mohammad, his Quran and Sharia and there's nothing left. There is absolutely nothing good about Islam to salvage.
Leaving aside that glaring problem:
After talking to about 2,500 'moderate' Muslims, I saw no indication whatsoever that they were open to a reform. They included Muslims who lived in Western countries and had access to other ideas and arguments against Islam.
I also do not see 'moderate' Muslims stepping up to the plate against so-called 'radical Islam'. There are a few isolated incidents, but so few that they only underscore the point. And, are these few Muslims simply acting the part? They get a lot of positive mileage from media and the left. It would be a great strategy.
Muslims are not assimilating into Western countries, or cultures.
To reform Islam would mean tossing out Muhammed as a prophet because of the evil examples he set. That would be as likely as Christians tossing out Christ. The whole foundation is built on Muhammed and the god he created.
Muslims refuse to be honest, which is mandatory for reform. Even here on city-data we see that Muslims will not take an honest look at glaring evidence and accept reality.
The children of Muslims are brainwashed into Islam. No Muslims urge their children to explore other religions, or atheism, and assure them that it is OK for the child to make up their own mind.
Islam and it's followers have little interest in this life and are living for their paradise with Muhammed. This is a core belief in Islam and Muslims will not give it up.
Shariah Law would have to be rewritten to respect human rights, a concept that is foreign to Islam. The idea of a secular islam is a contradiction in terms. A whole new Islam would have to be created and there is no basis for a reformation. "A reformed Islam is Islam no more."
The 'cheats' that do occur in Islam are kept as cheats. For example, most Muslims do not own slaves, yet none would suggest reforming laws to new laws that completely outlaw slavery and remove allowances of slavery in the Quran.
The whole philosophy of Islam rests on a huge scam. Muhammed started Islam (and wrote the Quran either by himself or with help) for the purpose of excusing his perversions and power lust. That people would fall for such a scam does not bode well for them realizing that it is a scam ... or even reforming that scam. The Quran is sacred to them and they think it is a direct word from god. This:
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” - Carl Sagan
Most, if not all, Muslims hate that other Muslims leave Islam and speak against it. I know quite a few ex-Muslims, and they are hated by their fellow Muslims. The nicest, most adorable Muslim thinks that disbelievers should be punished horribly by allah. What chance would a Muslim who wanted to reform Islam have?
There is no NEED to reform Islam. Muslims are literally getting away with murder. Political correctness shields them. Look at what is happening in Europe, yet still almost every country on earth welcomes Muslims! England, in the name of political correctness, shielded gangs of Muslim rapists who were raping hundreds of English children.
Bad philosophy comes from education of children and young adults. There is no way today's educational systems (with very rare exceptions) teach what is wrong IN PRINCIPLE (morally), or even pragmatically, with Islam.
Here is an interesting take on the reformation of Islam.
Although there might be other reasons for the violence perpetrated by some Islamists, Hirsi Ali argues that the root cause of this violence is the Islamic texts and hadiths.
Without the proper reformation of Islam, we cannot effectively deal with global terrorism and its related ills.
The existence of such texts, the author suggests, allows Muslim extremists to act on them on an ad hoc basis to justify their misdeeds.
Although she acknowledges the unpopularity of her arguments, she says they are not far-fetched. “My argument is that it is foolish to insist, as our leaders habitually do, that the violent acts of radical Islamists can be divorced from the religious ideas that inspire them.”
...
...
While Islamic apologists enjoy the support of some politicians as well as well-endowed religious organizations such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the true reformers like Hirsi Ali have been unfairly targeted by various Islamic groups, demonized, labeled as intolerant, and often threatened with violent retribution. Islamic zealots are free and steadfast in their misdeeds and are allowed to speak and brand their critics as bigots and hatemongers. They try to silence their critics and stigmatize their reformist views. We can no longer afford to look the other way and refuse to link the violence to the core beliefs of Islam, Ayaan Hirsi Ali affirms. “We cannot in good conscience give Islam a free pass on the ground of cultural sensitivity.”
It is obvious the fundamentalists will never accept the above proposals.
Will moderate Muslims accept the above, what are your views?
While I will agree some Muslims need reforming in order to actually practice Islam.
I do not see how one can change Islam. In many ways Islam is different for every Muslim. There are violent Muslims that have never read the Quran or ahadith. I believe very few members of ISIS have ever read the Qur'an although some may have read translations. In which case there will be differences depending uopn the language and the translater. I hotice quite a bit of differences when reading it in Arabic, English, French and German.
While changes can take place, the place to make then are within the Madhabs.When read carefully,except for the Hanbali Madhab, the madhabs make concessions for the era,local practices and progress.
I don't think it can happen. Off the top of my head:
Agree.
I don't think it is possible nor effective.
The Quran is supposed to be the perfected revelation from God.
Since it is perfect, God commanded the Quran cannot be changed, otherwise it would be an insult to an omniscient and omnipotent God.
However the main point we can get from the book is;
Although there might be other reasons for the violence perpetrated by some Islamists, Hirsi Ali argues that the root cause of this violence is the Islamic texts and hadiths.
The rationale to the above is thus;
1. The Quran [& Hadiths] contain evil laden elements that has contributed immense terrible evils to humanity.
2. The Quran is from God and thus immutable [to change would insult God].
3. So the only solution to 1 is ..............
While I will agree some Muslims need reforming in order to actually practice Islam.
I do not see how one can change Islam. In many ways Islam is different for every Muslim. There are violent Muslims that have never read the Quran or ahadith. I believe very few members of ISIS have ever read the Qur'an although some may have read translations. In which case there will be differences depending uopn the language and the translater. I hotice quite a bit of differences when reading it in Arabic, English, French and German.
While changes can take place, the place to make then are within the Madhabs.When read carefully,except for the Hanbali Madhab, the madhabs make concessions for the era,local practices and progress.
I had defined 'Islam" with the following concepts and contexts;
The general understanding of what is Islam can only be understood within the following concepts; 1. Monotheistic God. 2. Abraham 3. Muhammad & Gabriel 4. Quran
So I agree with you from the above basis, no one can change 'Islam' because God's words are supposed to be immutable [cannot be edited, deleted or changed]. Islam is totally represented by what is in the Quran as recited by Muhammad via Gabriel and originating from God.
It is true there are cases where Muslims committed quite immediate after declaring the sahada. These are rare cases. However, what has contributed to this is the martial ethos of Islam that has been around since the days of Muhammad and carried on to the present and supported by actual evil laden verses in the Quran.
The reality is this;
1. There are tones of evil/violent laden verses directed with contempt towards non-Muslims.
2. The imperative "us versus them" against non-Muslims.
3. There is a potential pool 300 million [20% x 1.5 billion] evil prone Muslims around the world.
The above 1-3 are all real. There may be slight variations in different translations but one cannot easily misinterpret the general ethos, i.e. the 'spirit' and certain evil motivational drives that are likely to influence the evil-prone.
From what we read of the Hadiths and texts from the Madhabs, the evil laden verses are made "clearer", i.e. amplified and exaggerated and made worse as a drive to ensure Muslims comply more closely to the verses of the Quran.
The fact is with the presence of the factors 1-3 above, there will be a continual events of terrible evils and violence committed from SOME Muslims, not only ISIS but from all over the world.
I had defined 'Islam" with the following concepts and contexts;
The general understanding of what is Islam can only be understood within the following concepts; 1. Monotheistic God. 2. Abraham 3. Muhammad & Gabriel 4. Quran
So I agree with you from the above basis, no one can change 'Islam' because God's words are supposed to be immutable [cannot be edited, deleted or changed]. Islam is totally represented by what is in the Quran as recited by Muhammad via Gabriel and originating from God.
It is true there are cases where Muslims committed quite immediate after declaring the sahada. These are rare cases. However, what has contributed to this is the martial ethos of Islam that has been around since the days of Muhammad and carried on to the present and supported by actual evil laden verses in the Quran.
The reality is this;
1. There are tones of evil/violent laden verses directed with contempt towards non-Muslims.
2. The imperative "us versus them" against non-Muslims.
3. There is a potential pool 300 million [20% x 1.5 billion] evil prone Muslims around the world.
The above 1-3 are all real. There may be slight variations in different translations but one cannot easily misinterpret the general ethos, i.e. the 'spirit' and certain evil motivational drives that are likely to influence the evil-prone.
From what we read of the Hadiths and texts from the Madhabs, the evil laden verses are made "clearer", i.e. amplified and exaggerated and made worse as a drive to ensure Muslims comply more closely to the verses of the Quran.
The fact is with the presence of the factors 1-3 above, there will be a continual events of terrible evils and violence committed from SOME Muslims, not only ISIS but from all over the world.
While those are valid opinions, I disagree that they are what most Muslims think.
My own findings are that most of us fall into one of several categories
Quran-only
Followers of one of the 4 traditional Madhabs
Followers of one of the Non-Sunni madhabs
Sufi--Many Muslim Sufi are Sunni and for basics study one of the Sunni Madhabs. Their way of life is Sufi, Quite interesting. I have strong leanings towards Sufi except for their use of Music and their veneration of saints. I have always been a Music hater have never enjoyed music of any form. not secular nor religious. for some reason music tends to irritate me rather then relax me.
Name only Muslims-these are people that do not share any believes not follow any practices, but call them self Muslim, probably for socialization purposes
The Qur'an only seem to be the least common as the majority of Muslims are Sunni and Sunni are obligated to follow a madhab
The majority of Shi'ite are 12ers and follow the Ayatollahs, the majority of Shi'a are not Qur'an only.
While the Qur'an is the primary source of Islam, it is very low on the list for learning Islam. I would venture to say that less than 20% of today's Muslims have ever read the Qur'an. Today the majority of Muslims do not read Arabic and a Muslim is not to consider a translation as being the Qur'an. Translations are not considered to be the word of Allaah(swt) they are the opinions of men and subject to error. Very few Ahadith translation except for English exist. Most non Arabic or Non-English readers will ever read the Ahadit. The Sunna and Sira are not found in book form, however they among the sources for the Madhabs.
While the 20% being violent is a figure from the standard (Norm) Bell Curve. For a study to match the Bell curve is so rare it is cause to suspect the data to be falsivied. If you take Statistical Analysis you will find that every study results in skewed Bell Curves. the rate of violence is probably going to differ more by nation than by religion. I suspect the more densly populated a nation is the more violent it will be and the bell curve will be skewed highly toward violence.
While it is possible the entire world population will contains 20# violent people the actual numbers will vary highly by Nation.
Iceland is definetly the least violent nation with virtually no violent crime. The rate of violent people approaches 0% But Iceland is one of if not the least densely populated nation.
Currently there are only 11 nations not engaged in a war or internal conflicts
The IEP’s findings mean that choices are slim if you want to live in a completely peaceful country. The only ones to achieve the lowest score for all forms of conflict were Switzerland, Japan, Qatar, Mauritius, Uruguay, Chile, Botswana, Costa Rica, Vietnam, Panama and Brazil.
The Qur'an does not have the influence you inagine.
Most Muslims have never read the Ahadith
The pool of violent Muslims is going to vary by Country.
With that said what needs to be found is why the vast majority of violent Muslims have been identified as Wahhabi (Note Wahhabi and Salafi are interchangeable although those calling themself Salafi while being the most fundamental tend to avoid violence.
In my 2,500+ conversations with so-called moderate Muslims I learned lot about this. I'd say about a third admitted up front that they had familiarity with the hadiths. They had ready answers (usually rationalizations) to my questions about Muhammed.
Not one of them would say that Muhammed was wrong to allow mass rape, have sex with a child, own and trade slaves, sell women, have people slaughtered, etc. They excused every action Muhammed took.
The rest of the claimed that Muhammed had done none of these things (you would be in this category) and may or may not have read the hadiths. When I showed them piles of evidence that Muhammed did do these things, and I found this fascinating, not ONE seemed surprised. They accused me of using false hadiths, so I asked them to post the 'correct' verses. Not one would do it. Some, at that point, started using the rationalizations. Some refused to discuss it further. Some threatened to slaughter me and my family. Many called ME a hater. A few, like you, just kept saying, "Muhammed did not do these things."
Not one said this was a shock to them and they would be investigating this!! Not one could say that Muhammed was bad to do such things. I had expected maybe 20-30% to look up the verses and be shocked. Not one.
This was sad evidence that Islam could not reform. I do not understand it but somehow Muslims have been taught to protect the evils of Islam at all costs. In that respect, it is just like a cult. No judgement can be passed on Muhammed no matter what he did, and he did it all. Murder, rape, sex with a child, slavery, human trafficking, terrorism, torture, theft......all above moral judgement by Muslims. There is no justice in Islam.
In my 2,500+ conversations with so-called moderate Muslims I learned lot about this. I'd say about a third admitted up front that they had familiarity with the hadiths. They had ready answers (usually rationalizations) to my questions about Muhammed.
Not one of them would say that Muhammed was wrong to allow mass rape, have sex with a child, own and trade slaves, sell women, have people slaughtered, etc. They excused every action Muhammed took.
The rest of the claimed that Muhammed had done none of these things (you would be in this category) and may or may not have read the hadiths. When I showed them piles of evidence that Muhammed did do these things, and I found this fascinating, not ONE seemed surprised. They accused me of using false hadiths, so I asked them to post the 'correct' verses. Not one would do it. Some, at that point, started using the rationalizations. Some refused to discuss it further. Some threatened to slaughter me and my family. Many called ME a hater. A few, like you, just kept saying, "Muhammed did not do these things."
Not one said this was a shock to them and they would be investigating this!! Not one could say that Muhammed was bad to do such things. I had expected maybe 20-30% to look up the verses and be shocked. Not one.
This was sad evidence that Islam could not reform. I do not understand it but somehow Muslims have been taught to protect the evils of Islam at all costs. In that respect, it is just like a cult. No judgement can be passed on Muhammed no matter what he did, and he did it all. Murder, rape, sex with a child, slavery, human trafficking, terrorism, torture, theft......all above moral judgement by Muslims. There is no justice in Islam.
Is it safe to assueme your Muslim acquintices spoke English?
I stated about the only language the Ahadith has been translated into is English. Most Muslims do not speak English and even less read Arabic. Should add there are also Ahadith in Farsi and Urdu. However most Farsi readers are Shi'ite they do not recognize the Ahadith Compilations Sunni recognize. the Shi'ite believe every collection that mention Aisha is a fraud written sometime after the 1400s. Urdu is spoken primarily in Pakistan. In any case only a minority of Muslims have been able to read the Ahadith, unless the can read Arabic, English, Farsi or Urdu. The majority of Muslims are asiatic and speak far eastern languages. More Muslims live in Indonesia than the entire Mideast. Only about 15-20% of the World's Muslims live in the Mideast. Point being the majority of the world's Muslims have never read the Ahadith and that is not even counting the Ahadith rejectors that do not believe the Ahadith are Islamic. . then you have the question of which collections did they read, Shi'ite, Sunni, Ismaili or the 1,000,000 plus that have yet to be verified. there are differences in the compilations.
While those are valid opinions, I disagree that they are what most Muslims think.
My own findings are that most of us fall into one of several categories
Quran-only
Followers of one of the 4 traditional Madhabs
Followers of one of the Non-Sunni madhabs
Sufi--Many Muslim Sufi are Sunni and for basics study one of the Sunni Madhabs. Their way of life is Sufi, Quite interesting. I have strong leanings towards Sufi except for their use of Music and their veneration of saints. I have always been a Music hater have never enjoyed music of any form. not secular nor religious. for some reason music tends to irritate me rather then relax me.
Name only Muslims-these are people that do not share any believes not follow any practices, but call them self Muslim, probably for socialization purposes
The Qur'an only seem to be the least common as the majority of Muslims are Sunni and Sunni are obligated to follow a madhab
The majority of Shi'ite are 12ers and follow the Ayatollahs, the majority of Shi'a are not Qur'an only.
Regardless of the FORMS of Muslims, the Quran is the central core of Islam proper.
Quote:
While the Qur'an is the primary source of Islam, it is very low on the list for
learning Islam.
I would venture to say that less than 20% of today's Muslims
have ever read the Qur'an. Today the majority of Muslims do not read Arabic and
a Muslim is not to consider a translation as being the Qur'an. Translations are
not considered to be the word of Allaah(swt) they are the opinions of men and
subject to error. Very few Ahadith translation except for English exist. Most
non Arabic or Non-English readers will ever read the Ahadit. The Sunna and Sira
are not found in book form, however they among the sources for the Madhabs.
Here is an analogy:
What is 'America and American' is leverage on the US Constitution.
Do you think 100% [or 75% or 50%] of Americans has read the full constitution and understood it.
What most American would have learn more of the Principles of US Constitution through secondary expositions by legal experts and various practices that are filtered down to the masses.
Even then there are different schools of political thoughts that interpret and applied the principle therein differently in certain aspects.
The above is applied similarly to all belief systems, be it political, social, cultural, educations, business, etc. and for this discussion, religion, where there the central core principles are stated within a book. While such a book drives the belief system they are often neglected by the masses.
It is the same for Islam. The keystone of Islam is the Quran.
Therefore it is critical that a Muslim understand the relation of the position of the Quran and its associated texts.
[quote]While the 20% being violent is a figure from the standard (Norm) Bell Curve. For a study to match the Bell curve is so rare it is cause to suspect the data to be falsivied. If you take Statistical Analysis you will find that every study results in skewed Bell Curves. the rate of violence is probably going to differ more by nation than by religion. I suspect the more densly populated a nation is the more violent it will be and the bell curve will be skewed highly toward violence.
While it is possible the entire world population will contains 20# violent people the actual numbers will vary highly by Nation.[quote].
I accept there is always the possibility of skewness.
However in the case of Islam and violence, the margin is SO big that it can override any skewness that arises.
The possibility that 20% of humans are vulnerable to evil and violence is very conservative, given 100% are 96-98% inherently beastly DNA wise.
However what is most frightening the numbers involved.
At 20% there is the potential pool of 300 million. all over the world.
It is only took 18++ to do a 911 and a lone wolf is sufficient to cause terrible evils and violence.
Even if I reduce the already conservative 20% to 1%! there is still a pool of 15 million.
An ordinary person should be able to sense how dangerous such figure is given ONE Muslims can cause terrible damage to humanity.
The number of Muslims may vary between countries, but the point that even ONE can bring forth terrible damage made the variations insignificant. For each 1,000 of Muslim there is a potential pool of 200 evil prone Muslims. That is very frightening!
Quote:
The Qur'an does not have the influence you imagine.
Most Muslims have never read the Ahadith
The pool of violent Muslims is going to vary by Country.
With that said what needs to be found is why the vast majority of violent Muslims have been identified as Wahhabi (Note Wahhabi and Salafi are interchangeable although those calling themself Salafi while being the most fundamental tend to avoid violence.
Whilst the majority of Muslims may not have read the Quran fully, it imperative principles and doctrine are filtered to the masses via various expositions through various channels.
The Quran is the core and keystone of Islam.
The fact is the Quran contain tons of evil laden elements and these influence to the small but significant % of evil prone to commit actual evils and violence upon non-Muslims and even Muslims [branded as hypocrites or denounced] themselves.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
[20% x 1.5 billion] evil prone Muslims around the world.
