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Old 10-03-2015, 09:52 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 2,632,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
We can and do question interpretations of the Qur'an. I doubt it there is even one ayyat in the Qur'an that every Muslim interprets the same way.

No person has the right to spread their interpretation as the "True" interpretation. We are not to give our interpretation without acknowledging it is our interpretation and subject to error. If we do give an interpretation we have to explain how we arrived at that opinion, if asked.

I will venture to say there are 1.5 billion views as to how that should be done. The true way will be "That which leads to Heaven" We our self have to find that and we can not depend upon any living teachers or religious leaders to tell us.
Your above points are moot.
From one perspective, theoretically it is true there are 7+ billion different views of what is reality.
But that is not how humanity operate.
Since humans has generic elements, humanity operate on the basis of common patterns. This is applicable to the interpretations of the Quran.

According to the general view of Islam, the Quran is the verbatim words of Allah in Arabic.
I noted there is no real difficult in getting the general consensus on the interpretations of 90% of the 6,236 Arabic verses into any language. [I have gone through each line and words of the Quran many times]
What is so difficult in interpreting regarding the substance of 'praying to Allah' 'pay zakat,' doing the Pilgrimage to Mecca for those who can do it? At most the difference is in the forms but not the substance.

Note the following verse; [mine]
22:39. Sanction [permission authorised] is given unto those [Muslims] who fight because they [Muslims] have been wronged [by infidels and hypocrites]; and Allah is indeed Able to give them [Muslims] victory.
The substance of the above verse is Muslims are given sanction by Allah to fight infidels if the Muslims are wronged and Muslims are assured of victory.

I cannot see how the above can be a problem of interpreting the substance of the verse for any Muslims who knows Arabic or read an interpretations in another language.

The only issue is with the 'form' in interpreting what is 'wronged' committed by infidels and hypocrites, and other terms.

Some Muslims rely on 22:39 and similar verses to interpret the US has wronged Islam and the Muslims with their occupations of Islamic countries, therefore per 22:39 Allah has given sanction to Muslim to fight them. This mean fighting [killing] Americans wherever they find them and damaging American's interests wherever they exists.
The above is applicable to all non-Muslims and hypocrites who has 'wronged' Muslims and Islam.
Re your point of the true way, such evil response will lead these 'some' Muslims to Heaven.
Since there is no central authority, who is to decide they are right or wrong.
These 'Some' Muslims will continue to commit the above evil acts because they insist they are right in their interpretations and they are 'True Muslim.'

The same basis i.e. 'same substance different forms' as above is applied to the interpretations of all the 6,236 verses in the Quran which comprised a large percentage of elements of contempt, enmity, violence and cruelty directed at non-Muslims.

I understand the majority of Muslims will not interpret the substance verses in the worst form but even if 20%, i.e. a pool of 300 million do, that is a significant and critical issue.
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Old 10-03-2015, 10:13 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 2,632,759 times
Reputation: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
So it is with Arabic, the majority of the words have no English equivalent. So what you get instead of an actual translation are interpretations and all interpretations are the opinion of the writer.
In our modern era translation from one language to another is no big issue.
For this sake, give me one example where one word in Arabic in the Quran which is so sensitive that cannot be supported by any context such the wrong interpretation will lead to the false message of the core principles of Islam.
Theologically and spiritually what is in the Quran are relatively kindergarten to grade school stuff.

Quote:
The main thing one should know is the Qur'an is not a new message, the very same message was given to all the prophets that came before Muhammad(saws)
The Quran is claim as not new and the main message was conveyed by a train of messengers in the past.
However Allah claimed all the current written 'holy' texts i.e. Torah, Gospel and the likes has been corrupted [oral original changed, hidden, ignored] and thus should be rejected totally.

Allah claimed in the Quran, only the untainted existing Quran as perfected and revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel is the ONLY valid final version.
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Old 10-04-2015, 04:37 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,501 posts, read 17,023,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"What needs to be looked at are the multiple interpretations and try to find out why the writer of each supports his interpretation. "

Guessing games? No, what needs to be looked at is tossing out a book that no one can interpret and demands hate and endless torture for non-believers. You are just making my case stronger.

You have been a victim of this book. You think everyone who does not believe in and submit to your fictitious allah (Muhammed) should be endlessly tortured for eternity in the most horrible and psychotic ways possible.
No that is not what I believe. I do not believe a non-believer should suffer simply because they are a non-believer. Neither can I find any where in the Qur'an that it is said. a person will be punished, simply because they are a non-believer.

You need to take into consideration that much of the world is illiterate. Most of the world will never read the Qur'an not even in their own language. Therefore it should be self-evident that the sources of learning how to perform Islam is not the Qur'an alone. There are several means of learniong how to perform Islam and the Qur'an alone is not a good way to learn how. although it is the reason why a person should perform Islam.

Also it should be noted that there are many ways to become a Muslim Not all require any specfic knowledge of the Qur'an. such as all babies are Muslim until they reach the age of accountability and have the responsibility of making their own choices. Even then a person can still be a Muslim if they are performing Islam to the best of their ability and in accordance with the knowledge they have, even if they have never heard of the Qur'an or Muhammad(saws) through no fault of their own.

However the more a person leans about Islam, the greater is their obligation to follow Islam in the manner they learn. But learning has to be sought, it is not handed out. One needs to be a searcher and a questioner, doubting all things until they them self have found reason to believe.
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Old 10-04-2015, 09:17 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 1,159,266 times
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"No that is not what I believe. I do not believe a non-believer should suffer simply because they are a non-believer. Neither can I find any where in the Qur'an that it is said. a person will be punished, simply because they are a non-believer."

From the Quran:

But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient,

(misleads?)

But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

And those who disbelieve and deny Our signs - those will be companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally."

And whoever disbelieves - I will grant him enjoyment for a little; then I will force him to the punishment of the Fire, and wretched is the destination."

There are hunderds of verses like this!

Now, you will try to argue that there is a difference between non-believers and disbelievers. But you already ruined your chance at that when you said that everyone is born Muslim. So, there are no people that are ignorant. ALL people were born Muslim and ALL people had their chance to accept or reject Islam of their own FREE WILL. I learned that from you.
I think it's BS, but that's what you claim. You can't eat your cake and have it, too.

Even if all people were not born Muslim your argument falls flat. What about the many people who may be ignorant of Islam (very few these days) and if they learned about Allah would hate Islam or become non-believers? That's the majority. Does Allah take them to some conference room and question them before sending them on to the virgins?

But why would allah have to do that? He's the creator of the universe, so he knows all and is all powerful. He can do ANYTHING!! So, back to a question I keep asking and never get answered:

Why doesn't allah just make us all Muslims if he wants us all to be Muslim? Poof, we're all Muslim! That easy!! Why toy with us and mislead some and not others and then proceed with horrible, endless torture?

Again, what allah is doing is the work of a psychopath: Displays violent behavior (mass murder and torture), failure to feel remorse or guilt, psychopathic killers view their innocent victims as inhuman objects to be tormented and violated for their amusement, unreliability (misleads some, not others), massive ego, sexual perversions (likes to see men rape women), etc.

Your arguments about Islam always turn into a bunch of contradictions when examined. And it bugs me that some of us spend time researching and prove you wrong and you just don't care. Why not?

Anyways, I am one of the people you think should and will burn everlastingly in hellfire and be subjected to endless unspeakable torture at the hands of allah. My crime? Learning about Islam and rejecting it. Why did I reject it? Based on my moral code that stands against rape, slaughter, slavery, selling women, pedophilia, terrorism, irrationality, dishonesty, and all other initiation of force and superstitions. I reject Islam because I AM GOOD. You think allah is right to slaughter me BECAUSE I AM GOOD.

I am not the one who thinks you should suffer endlessly. The pro-suffering and pro-torture and pro-misery are what YOU think should happen to me (and Continuum and all others like us). Which of us is immoral?
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Old 10-04-2015, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,501 posts, read 17,023,829 times
Reputation: 7539
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"No that is not what I believe. I do not believe a non-believer should suffer simply because they are a non-believer. Neither can I find any where in the Qur'an that it is said. a person will be punished, simply because they are a non-believer."

From the Quran:

But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient,

(misleads?)

But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

And those who disbelieve and deny Our signs - those will be companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally."

And whoever disbelieves - I will grant him enjoyment for a little; then I will force him to the punishment of the Fire, and wretched is the destination."

There are hunderds of verses like this!

Now, you will try to argue that there is a difference between non-believers and disbelievers. But you already ruined your chance at that when you said that everyone is born Muslim. So, there are no people that are ignorant. ALL people were born Muslim and ALL people had their chance to accept or reject Islam of their own FREE WILL. I learned that from you.
I think it's BS, but that's what you claim. You can't eat your cake and have it, too.

Even if all people were not born Muslim your argument falls flat. What about the many people who may be ignorant of Islam (very few these days) and if they learned about Allah would hate Islam or become non-believers? That's the majority. Does Allah take them to some conference room and question them before sending them on to the virgins?

But why would allah have to do that? He's the creator of the universe, so he knows all and is all powerful. He can do ANYTHING!! So, back to a question I keep asking and never get answered:

Why doesn't allah just make us all Muslims if he wants us all to be Muslim? Poof, we're all Muslim! That easy!! Why toy with us and mislead some and not others and then proceed with horrible, endless torture?

Again, what allah is doing is the work of a psychopath: Displays violent behavior (mass murder and torture), failure to feel remorse or guilt, psychopathic killers view their innocent victims as inhuman objects to be tormented and violated for their amusement, unreliability (misleads some, not others), massive ego, sexual perversions (likes to see men rape women), etc.

Your arguments about Islam always turn into a bunch of contradictions when examined. And it bugs me that some of us spend time researching and prove you wrong and you just don't care. Why not?

Anyways, I am one of the people you think should and will burn everlastingly in hellfire and be subjected to endless unspeakable torture at the hands of allah. My crime? Learning about Islam and rejecting it. Why did I reject it? Based on my moral code that stands against rape, slaughter, slavery, selling women, pedophilia, terrorism, irrationality, dishonesty, and all other initiation of force and superstitions. I reject Islam because I AM GOOD. You think allah is right to slaughter me BECAUSE I AM GOOD.

I am not the one who thinks you should suffer endlessly. The pro-suffering and pro-torture and pro-misery are what YOU think should happen to me (and Continuum and all others like us). Which of us is immoral?
I have no knowledge of who will go to Hell. that is not my concern as it is not within my ability to send anyone to hell nor to prevent anyone from going to hell. Each person alone chooses to go to heaven or hell. No human can serve as an intermediary for another person.

While it is my desire that no one will ever go to hell, that is all up to each individual. We alone have the choice of how we will spend eternity.

We really do not know what the actual punishments of hell are. We only have some physical descriptions of the deepesrt level of hell.

It is my sincere desire that you and all people will choose heaven. But I can not force anyone to do so.
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Old 10-04-2015, 03:16 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 1,159,266 times
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"Each person alone chooses to go to heaven or hell. "

Invalid choice. Many people do not believe in heaven or hell....how can they make that decision? Many people believe in a different god. What if I tell you to decide between Atheism or Satanism. Which will you choose?

"It is my sincere desire that you and all people will choose heaven. But I can not force anyone to do so."

What you are evading here and have said before is that you think people who have knowledge of Islam and decide to hold other beliefs, or no belief, will be endlessly tortured by Allah ... burning in fire for eternity. And that allah is justified to do such evil, not because someone did wrong, but because they had integrity to their own morality and beliefs. And doid not submit to allah's sick ego and perverted ideology.

Here is what you said:
"I do not believe that is hatred. It is an act of giving people free will and allowing us to choose as we desire. The Qur'an is pointing out the consequences for our own actions......Sounds like an act of love to warn people of the probable consequences of what their choices will be."


You claim it is an act of love to torture people for eternity if they don't submit to allah after being threatened with eternal torture by allah. I'm betting all Muslims think the same. How far a jump is it to terrorism against non-Muslims from there?

"We really do not know what the actual punishments of hell are. We only have some physical descriptions of the deepesrt level of hell. "

You contradict yourself. If you have descriptions of punishment from the Quran (allah himself) then you do know what the punishments are. I've posted these verses.
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Old 10-04-2015, 04:58 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 1,159,266 times
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Here's a question for you. Do you think it is MORAL for allah to endlessly, horribly torture people for not submitting to Islam after learning Islam exists? Yes or no.
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Old 10-04-2015, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,501 posts, read 17,023,829 times
Reputation: 7539
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"Each person alone chooses to go to heaven or hell. "

Invalid choice. Many people do not believe in heaven or hell....how can they make that decision? Many people believe in a different god. What if I tell you to decide between Atheism or Satanism. Which will you choose?

"It is my sincere desire that you and all people will choose heaven. But I can not force anyone to do so."

What you are evading here and have said before is that you think people who have knowledge of Islam and decide to hold other beliefs, or no belief, will be endlessly tortured by Allah ... burning in fire for eternity. And that allah is justified to do such evil, not because someone did wrong, but because they had integrity to their own morality and beliefs. And doid not submit to allah's sick ego and perverted ideology.

Here is what you said:
"I do not believe that is hatred. It is an act of giving people free will and allowing us to choose as we desire. The Qur'an is pointing out the consequences for our own actions......Sounds like an act of love to warn people of the probable consequences of what their choices will be."


You claim it is an act of love to torture people for eternity if they don't submit to allah after being threatened with eternal torture by allah. I'm betting all Muslims think the same. How far a jump is it to terrorism against non-Muslims from there?

"We really do not know what the actual punishments of hell are. We only have some physical descriptions of the deepesrt level of hell. "

You contradict yourself. If you have descriptions of punishment from the Quran (allah himself) then you do know what the punishments are. I've posted these verses.
I am under the believe those descriptions are metaphorical as I doubt if we could comprehend how we could experience pain after we no longer have this physical body. Some Muslims do believe they are actual descriptions and some of us understand them to be metaphors.

.

A person will not find hatred in the Qur'an without interpreting as it suits their agenda. To read single ayyats and consider them complete statements is an easy way to find hatred. But one needs to usually read an entire discourse to discover what is actually being spoken of.

I can not see into your thoughts, intentions and heart. I therefore do not know if you will go to heaven or Hell. As you you are an atheist I assume you have found reason to be so. But, Allaah(swt) will treat you fairly and Justly just as he will treat every individual.

At least you have ventured into the Islamic forum and perhaps you will learn what various Muslims actually believe. I hope you will discover most of us are very caring people concerned for the well being of all people.
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Old 10-04-2015, 05:46 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 1,159,266 times
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"I am under the believe those descriptions are metaphorical as I doubt if we could comprehend how we could experience pain after we no longer have this physical body. Some Muslims do believe they are actual descriptions and some of us understand them to be metaphors."

This is in the Quran, as an example:

"Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

Would this be a metaphor for a hot bath and medicinal ennema?

"A person will not find hatred in the Qur'an without interpreting as it suits their agenda. To read single ayyats and consider them complete statements is an easy way to find hatred. But one needs to usually read an entire discourse to discover what is actually being spoken of."

Well, people who actually read the Quran and are rational would disagree with you.

"And you had already known about those who transgressed among you concerning the sabbath, and We said to them, "Be apes, despised."

"Therefore when they revoltingly persisted in what they had been forbidden, We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated."

Twice!

And We caused to overtake them in this world a curse, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be of the despised.

"At least you have ventured into the Islamic forum and perhaps you will learn what various Muslims actually believe. I hope you will discover most of us are very caring people concerned for the well being of all people."

I have spoken to nearly 3,000 Muslims and been on countless forums of all kinds where Muslims post. I find some Muslims are superficially nice until asked tough questions about Islam. I find NO Muslims will say that any of the evil done by Muhammed was wrong. I find NO Muslims that are horrified, or even against, the horrible torture Allah (they believe) does.

Those who dispute about the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, without any authority that has come to them, it is greatly hateful and disgusting to Allah and to those who believe. Thus does Allah seal up the heart of every arrogant, tyrant. (So they cannot guide themselves to the Right Path).

"I can not see into your thoughts, intentions and heart. I therefore do not know if you will go to heaven or Hell. As you you are an atheist I assume you have found reason to be so. But, Allaah(swt) will treat you fairly and Justly just as he will treat every individual. "

You have read my posts against Islam on this forum and you have read the Quran. You have said yourself:
"I do not believe that is hatred. It is an act of giving people free will and allowing us to choose as we desire. The Qur'an is pointing out the consequences for our own actions......Sounds like an act of love to warn people of the probable consequences of what their choices will be."

So what warning am I being given in the Quran? What is the choice that will send me to hell? Submit to allah, or roast in hell. Isn't that the choice your allah gives us?

Do you think it is MORAL for allah to endlessly, horribly torture people for not submitting to Islam after learning Islam exists? Yes or no? This is a very important question.
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Old 10-04-2015, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,501 posts, read 17,023,829 times
Reputation: 7539
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Here's a question for you. Do you think it is MORAL for allah to endlessly, horribly torture people for not submitting to Islam after learning Islam exists? Yes or no.
I do not find yes or no to be appropriate answers.

As it is not a Yes or No question. Qualifying conditions will justify either answer.

My answer is yes, if the person is aware that Allaah(exists, They agree Islam is the proper way to submit and they know that refusal to submit will result in eternal punishment.

My answer is no
, if the person has no reason to believe Allaah(swt) exists, They have found no reason to submit to a being they believe does not exist and they have found no reason to believe there is an eternal after life after the death of our physical body.


If a person does not believe in the existence of Allaah(swt) or in an eternal life for all or us, I doubt they can be said to understand the Qur'an or the teachings of Muhammad(saws)

In order to reject Allaah(swt) and refuse to accept heaven, a person must first believe He exists and they make a conscious free will effort to deliberately reject His existence. Just my opinion and you will find other Muslims have different opinions.
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