Geert Wilders is a Dutch politician: "I don't hate Muslims, I hate Islam"

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

First of all I do think Islam is a religion, but not in the same meaning as the English word religion.

Then you don't, now you do, i.e. 'Islam is or is-not a religion.'
There is nothing special with the English word 'religion'.
'Religion' in English means a set of beliefs system that is generic in any language.

Analogy:
'Rose' in English represent a type of flower with certain specific properties [say Flower-R].
Thus 'a rose by any other name ....'
Any flower that has the generic specific properties 'R' is Flower-R regardless of what name we call it, i.e. rose or any other names in any language.
Flower-R [English =rose, f = se leva, etc] may come in many different forms in terms of its plant, leaves, color, shape, size, smell, etc.] but it is generically 'flower-R'.

Similarly Islam may be different from other religions in terms of its forms and other additional features, but fundamentally it has that set of belief system that is generic as in any other religion.

Therefore Islam is a religion in the generic sense of a religion i.e. that set of belief system that generic to all religions of the world. [note Ninian Smart].

Tax exemptions are a camouflaged method of Governments regulating religions and should be stopped.

Freedom of religion carries with it the requirement to be self supporting with no government assistance.

This is a joke.
There is no laws for any religion to seek tax exemptions.
Religious groups voluntarily seek tax exemptions to save money for themselves [in some cases the money saved is sent to support terrorist groups].

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by Continuum

Then you don't, now you do, i.e. 'Islam is or is-not a religion.'
There is nothing special with the English word 'religion'.
'Religion' in English means a set of beliefs system that is generic in any language.

Analogy:
'Rose' in English represent a type of flower with certain specific properties [say Flower-R].
Thus 'a rose by any other name ....'
Any flower that has the generic specific properties 'R' is Flower-R regardless of what name we call it, i.e. rose or any other names in any language.
Flower-R [English =rose, f = se leva, etc] may come in many different forms in terms of its plant, leaves, color, shape, size, smell, etc.] but it is generically 'flower-R'.

Similarly Islam may be different from other religions in terms of its forms and other additional features, but fundamentally it has that set of belief system that is generic as in any other religion.

Therefore Islam is a religion in the generic sense of a religion i.e. that set of belief system that generic to all religions of the world. [note Ninian Smart].




This is a joke.
There is no laws for any religion to seek tax exemptions.
Religious groups voluntarily seek tax exemptions to save money for themselves [in some cases the money saved is sent to support terrorist groups].

No laws to, but a strong monetary incentive to do so. In other words a loss of revenue to taxes if one does not accept the tax exemption.

The English word Religion is as you state: Religion' in English means a set of beliefs system

In Arabic De'en is the way a person lives. Not a specific set of beliefs or practices. Muslims overalll share very few beliefs or practices. Those we do share are very generic and could apply to the life style of many different groups.

there is no set criteria to be a Muslim one need only submit to God(swt) to the best of their ability and knowledge. With no penalty for lack of knowledge or inability, provided the lack is not because of their own choice.

the extreme minimum is the person has to believe there is only one God(swt) and only he is to be worshiped. If a person through no fault of their own has no knowledge of God(swt) they can still enter heaven and be judges only upon the evil and good they have done.

We have no absolute requirements that must be met before a person can be a Muslim.

We do have have our 5 pillats of faith and 6 common beliefs, but failure to not adhere to them does not automatically mean the person is not a Muslim. No mbership of anything is required. One does not even need attend a Mosque. they can also be their own Imam. Much of this will be based upon a person's knowledge and abilities. the more a person knows the greater is their respnsibility in how they perform Islam.

While are are requirements for various groups of Muslims one can still be a Muslim and perform Islam without adherence to any group (Madhab)

There is no definitive criteria that covers all Muslims. One reason we should never say any person is not a Muslim. We can only say their actions do not appear to be Islamic.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

The English word Religion is as you state: Religion' in English means a set of beliefs system

In Arabic De'en is the way a person lives. Not a specific set of beliefs or practices. Muslims overalll share very few beliefs or practices. Those we do share are very generic and could apply to the life style of many different groups.

As I had posted many times, the Quran has corrupted the concept of what is intended to the generic Eternal Way [as with all other religions] by including extra elements into it and worst still include evils and violent elements. The Quran has conflated and messed up the concept of the eternal way as DEEN with other extraneous elements.

The conventional meaning of 'religion' [set of religious belief system] is this;
Religion [generic] = generic Eternal Way + generic religious properties
This generic definition of 'religion' should be agreeable by all religion because it only contain generic properties that are common to all religions.

'Religion' used as a general term is the following;
Religion [general] = generic Eternal Way + generic religious properties + forms of religions + way of life.


I think if we define Islam in the following, we should able to reach common grounds for communication purposes, i.e.

Islam [generic] = generic Eternal Way + generic religious properties

Islam [general] = generic Eternal Way [DEEN] + generic religious properties + forms of religions + way of life.

Thus when I refer to Islam [generic] as a religion, I am only taking into consideration the elements in blue and not the elements in red.

In Arabic De'en is the way a person lives.

As I had explained elsewhere this is an error and false presentation of what is human reality.
'Deen' should rightly be the Eternal Way as the universal [thus reconcile with all other religions]. The Ways of Life is merely a Form which should not be standardized.
The Arabs took the concept of Deana from the Zoroastrian and misapplied & corrupted it.

[GoCardinals]

Originally Posted by juju33312

The evidence against Islam is overwhelming.

Yet it keeps among the fastest growing faiths, where more converts are women. Must be very amusing to you.

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by Continuum

As I had posted many times, the Quran has corrupted the concept of what is intended to the generic Eternal Way [as with all other religions] by including extra elements into it and worst still include evils and violent elements. The Quran has conflated and messed up the concept of the eternal way as DEEN with other extraneous elements.

The conventional meaning of 'religion' [set of religious belief system] is this;
Religion [generic] = generic Eternal Way + generic religious properties
This generic definition of 'religion' should be agreeable by all religion because it only contain generic properties that are common to all religions.

'Religion' used as a general term is the following;
Religion [general] = generic Eternal Way + generic religious properties + forms of religions + way of life.


I think if we define Islam in the following, we should able to reach common grounds for communication purposes, i.e.

Islam [generic] = generic Eternal Way + generic religious properties

Islam [general] = generic Eternal Way [DEEN] + generic religious properties + forms of religions + way of life.

Thus when I refer to Islam [generic] as a religion, I am only taking into consideration the elements in blue and not the elements in red.

As I had explained elsewhere this is an error and false presentation of what is human reality.
'Deen' should rightly be the Eternal Way as the universal [thus reconcile with all other religions]. The Ways of Life is merely a Form which should not be standardized.
The Arabs took the concept of Deana from the Zoroastrian and misapplied & corrupted it.

De'en does mean an idividuals way of life. It does not apply just to those who call them self Muslim. You like all people have your own individual De'en. For those of us who claim to be Muslim it includes doing all things as our presentation to Allaah(swt) It is a more honest reflection of our true belief than our formal religious practices.

an issue that arises is there is no English word that equates to De'en. There is no Arabic word that equates to Religion.

What has to be used are the words Being adopted into each of the perspective languages. the English word religion is not applicable to Islam. It may be close but not fully applicable. Islam is the word that has to be used in Arabic and it is a verb meaning the act of submission to Allaah(swt) English translators made the error of thinking it was a noun and the proper name for the De'en followed by people on the Arabian Peninsula

It is sort of like when English explorers came across with the discover of animals they had never seen before and there was no English word for them such as the Platypus, Kangaroo, Axolotol, Coati and many other animals. They adopted the Native name.

But religious missionaries into non-Christian lands forced English words to fit non-Christian or even English concepts. They had to have a name for abstract concepts that resembled what they called religion. It has onley been in recent years that the act of Islam was turned into a noun by the English speaking world. Prior they called it Mohhamadism, it is only out of political correctness they turned Islam into a Noun. When they discovered Muslims do not believe Muhammad founded a new religion and it was insulting to call the performance of Islam Mohammadism.