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My project cover 100% of Muslims but to me the critical variables are the 20% of evil prone people who are Muslims.
"You" are not one of those 20% evil prone Muslims.
So whatever you explain is not useful to me, unless you can step into the shoes of the evil prone Muslim.
The only one important point we can agree is that the Quran [no other texts] is the sole representation of Islam.
What are you doing here then talking to me and blaming the Qur'an for having evil laden verses?
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I suggest you do research into the nature and psychology of evil prone people in the deepest depth and widest possible range.
I suggest you research more on human nature and psychology.
Wrong forum to discuss psychology.
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I stated;
1. DNA wise ALL humans [including Muslims] has the POTENTIAL to commit evil.
2. About 20% of ALL humans [including Muslims are PRONE to commit evil.
Note the difference between POTENTIAL and PRONE [having the tendency in the present].
Then the real reason is the POTENTIAL. When one realizes that POTENTIAL one commits evil. The same is done when doing good; realizing one's POTENTIAL
A Muslim must comply with the commands in the verses of the Qur'an. If he does the opposite, he is not a Muslim when doing the opposite.
I do not agree with you on the above.
Once a Muslim has entered [explicitly or implicitly] into a covenant with Allah, the Muslim will forever be a Muslim unless he committed an unforgivable sin or voluntarily apostate from Islam.
When a Muslim does the opposite of a command, he has committed a sin but he is still a Muslim except the Muslim will be rewarded according to his grading.
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You keep saying that there are evil laden verses in the Qur'an. You see them evil laden but I don't see them that way. I see them teaching me to stop violence, oppression and persecution. These verses do not influence evil acts if understood properly.
Tell me something, when the British government decided to bomb ISIS in Syria, was it influenced by the evil acts of ISIS to do evil acts in Syria?
I have stated there are more than 55% of the 6,236 verses of the Quran which has a least a low level evil laden element.
Note evil laden element meant the verses is loaded with an evil element of various degrees.
It is just like a gun which is loaded but it can be used by evil prone people to commit evil.
Good natured people will not commit evil or violence even if they have a loaded gun.
So the Quran is metaphorically like a loaded gun.
When exposed to evil prone Muslims, they are influenced and inspired to unload the loaded evil elements from those evil laden verses.
"but I don't see them that way."
I understand why you do not see them that way, because you are a good natured person, thus you see only the "duck" but not the 'rabbit' in the SAME image.
The 20% evil prone Muslims see the 'rabbit' but not the 'duck'.
Both you and the evil prone Muslim see the truth in the SAME Quran and both are not wrong.
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Tell me something, when the British government decided to bomb ISIS in Syria, was it influenced by the evil acts of ISIS to do evil acts in Syria?
Note War is fundamentally evil.
So what the British government is doing is fundamentally evil and immoral.
However humanity has no choice but tolerate war at present till humanity can get rid of all wars.
When the British government bomb ISIS in Syria the event is like this;
1. The existence of Evil laden elements in the Quran,
2. The Muslims of ISIS are influenced and inspired by 1 above to commit terrible evil and violence on non-Muslims and other Muslims plus cultural genocides and other evils.
3. In response to 2 the British Government [together with many other governments] bombed Syria.
If you are good at problem solving, you would have first do a root cause analysis and solve the problem at the root.
In this case, the root cause is 1.
If 1 did not exists, then 2 and 3 would not exist.
Therefore the solution is to address 1 and deal with it.
That is my answer to your question based on facts.
Last edited by Continuum; 02-24-2016 at 12:42 AM..
Once a Muslim has entered [explicitly or implicitly] into a covenant with Allah, the Muslim will forever be a Muslim unless he committed an unforgivable sin or voluntarily apostate from Islam.
Doing opposite means he is voluntarily leaving Islam and doing kufr at the time. He is a kafir during that act which is opposite to what is in Islam.
Entering into a covenant with Allah makes one a believer. It is actually complying with the commands from Allah that makes one a Muslim and doing opposite makes one a kafir. Kufr (hiding the truth on purpose) is act of doing something opposite to what is commanded by God.
A Muslim must comply with the commands in the verses of the Qur'an. If he does the opposite, he is not a Muslim when doing the opposite.
You keep saying that there are evil laden verses in the Qur'an. You see them evil laden but I don't see them that way. I see them teaching me to stop violence, oppression and persecution. These verses do not influence evil acts if understood properly.
Tell me something, when the British government decided to bomb ISIS in Syria, was it influenced by the evil acts of ISIS to do evil acts in Syria?
No True Scotsman says such fallacies. So then all Christians are Saints, and when they aren't, they aren't being Christian. All Hindus are Saints, and when they aren't, they aren't being Hindu. What a ridiculous proposal to defend a barrier, to defend a label.
The idea isn't whether or not they are being "true Muslims" but whether they are inspired by Bibliolatry (choosing your preferred interpretations), etc.
Doing opposite means he is voluntarily leaving Islam and doing kufr at the time. He is a kafir during that act which is opposite to what is in Islam.
That should be so obvious there no need to bring up that point.
I thought you were referring to "a" command and doing the opposite.
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Entering into a covenant with Allah makes one a believer. It is actually complying with the commands from Allah that makes one a Muslim and doing opposite makes one a kafir. Kufr (hiding the truth on purpose) is act of doing something opposite to what is commanded by God.
If you meant opposite is one voluntarily leaving Islam then one is a disbeliever.
A Muslim also automatically become a disbeliever if s/he associate a partner, idol, deities, gods with Allah.
As I had argued before,
When a person entered into a covenant with Allah, it implied s/he
1. has accepted Allah as the Only God and
2. Muhammad is his final messenger and
3. acknowledge the existence of the last day.
Thereupon s/he is a Muslim who is a submitter or a believer.
I posed this question before but you did not respond to it;
What is a person has completed the covenant with Allah by affirming 1-3 above then die or go into coma suddenly, do you call him a "believer" and not a Muslim?
Btw, I raised another poser;
Allah stated some the wandering Arabs in one case, were only submitter and not yet believers.
Therefore Allah implied a believer is one who has done most the actual acts of worshipping for some time and not a beginner who is merely a submitter.
Therefore your claim that a person who has just entered into a covenant with Allah is termed a believer, is wrong.
Last edited by Continuum; 02-24-2016 at 02:10 AM..
As I had argued before,
When a person entered into a covenant with Allah, it implied s/he
1. has accepted Allah as the Only God and
2. Muhammad is his final messenger and
3. acknowledge the existence of the last day.
Thereupon s/he is a Muslim who is a submitter or a believer.
S/he is believer at this stage. S/he has not submitted yet.
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I posed this question before but you did not respond to it;
What is a person has completed the covenant with Allah by affirming 1-3 above then die or go into coma suddenly, do you call him a "believer" and not a Muslim?
He was a believer but had no time to submit. He would be judged on his intention rather than his actions of submitting for which he was given no time by Allah.
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Btw, I raised another poser;
Allah stated some the wandering Arabs in one case, were only submitter and not yet believers.
Therefore Allah implied a believer is one who has done most the actual acts of worshipping for some time and not a beginner who is merely a submitter.
Therefore your claim that a person who has just entered into a covenant with Allah is termed a believer, is wrong.
No. You misunderstand about wandering Arabs. They were neither believing nor actually submitting to Allah but were pretending to be submitting without believing in the true sense in their hearts. They were pretending that they were believers and are submitting as a favour to Muhammad but were told that they haven't yet really believed but are merely pretending to submit to lay Muhammad under obligation. Read it in context.
Believing in Allah, His mesenger and the last day is not the same as submitting to whatever is commanded in the revelations. As you have already admitted in another post, no matter how many commands in the Qur'an you comply with, you canot be called Muslim because you haven't believed in Allah. Therefore being a believer is prerequisite to be considered complying with the commands (being a Muslim and believer at the same time). This means faith first and then practice begins. If no faith, there cannot be any practice. Pretending to submit without believing first is hypocrisy.
S/he is believer at this stage. S/he has not submitted yet.
He was a believer but had no time to submit. He would be judged on his intention rather than his actions of submitting for which he was given no time by Allah.
No. You misunderstand about wandering Arabs. They were neither believing nor actually submitting to Allah but were pretending to be submitting without believing in the true sense in their hearts. They were pretending that they were believers and are submitting as a favour to Muhammad but were told that they haven't yet really believed but are merely pretending to submit to lay Muhammad under obligation. Read it in context.
Believing in Allah, His mesenger and the last day is not the same as submitting to whatever is commanded in the revelations. As you have already admitted in another post, no matter how many commands in the Qur'an you comply with, you canot be called Muslim because you haven't believed in Allah. Therefore being a believer is prerequisite to be considered complying with the commands (being a Muslim and believer at the same time). This means faith first and then practice begins. If no faith, there cannot be any practice. Pretending to submit without believing first is hypocrisy.
I have explained the fine distinction and overlapping situation of 'submission' and 'believing' in another post, here it is again,
Here is a better example that reflect mental acts ['submission' and 'believing'] and not physical actions;
1. Suppose I tell X, he will die soon and I have a cure for him within 6 months.
2. For me to cure him, X must submit his will to me [obey me without questions].
3. In order for X to submit to me, he must have some degree of faith* in me.
4. *Now faith is "belief" without proofs nor reason.
5. At this initial stage this 'belief-A' is not a strong believe proper.
6. Once X agree to submit, he then has to began the process of submission.
7. Obviously both me and X must enter into an agreement or contract [covenant if theology] to reflect his submission and his subsequent obedience of all my commands/instruction.
8. One of my condition is X must learn more about me and the process of the cure progressively while I am curing him.
9. Now while X is still submitting to me, X is learning more about me and the process of the cure progressively, his initial faith, i.e. belief-B will progressively increase within his mind [heart as used in Islam].
10. Belief-B is the proper and stronger process of believing and this Belief-B is stronger and of a higher grade than the initial and maintain 'submission' started in 2 above.
This is what 49:14 is conveying.
The wandering Arabs has performed submission as in 2 [2 verses of the 6,236 verses of the Quran] but have not attained Belief-B as in process 9 yet.
For the wandering Arabs to achieve the state of 'believe' proper, they will have to study the whole 6,236 verses of the Quran and comply with the imperative verses and as many of the other verses as possible.
Note I am only expressing Allah's words and intention as per the Quran.
Get the point?
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Originally Posted by Khalif
No. You misunderstand about wandering Arabs. They were neither believing nor actually submitting to Allah but were pretending to be submitting without believing in the true sense in their hearts.
You are dishonest in trying to twist Allah's word.
Allah clearly stated in 49:14 the wandering Arabs are in a state of 'submission' but not [yet] in a state of 'believe'.
Suggest you read 49:14 again and this time more clearly.
Allah clearly stated in 49:14 the wandering Arabs are in a state of 'submission' but not [yet] in a state of 'believe'.
Suggest you read 49:14 again and this time more clearly.
You need to read this verse 5000+ times to understand it. Allah is not saying that they are in Islam (state of submission) but saying to them what not to say and what to "say" instead.
Your mental acts are just believing,, it is the physical acts AFTER BELIEVING that is Submission
You just keep insisting submission is after believing and you ignore Allah's explanation in 49:14 by twisting it.
I have explain many times as in line with Allah's words in 49:14 why submission must be the first stage and believing-proper follows after the critical initial stage of submission.
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