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You are deflecting and did not answer my question at all, i.e. Now did the French and Spanish translators translate "apes" and "swine" [in 5:60] as the same in their respective language [singe and mono] or in a different less derogatory sense.
There is no excuse the OT has similar elements.
I know the evil laden elements in the OT are more and worse than those in the Quran.
Whilst the OT has a lot of evil elements and NT has some, these are somehow muted by the current Jews and the Christians. The NT has an overriding pacifist maxim [love your enemies, give the other cheek, love this and love that] to suppress and control the evil laden elements.
The serious issue with Islam is it plagiarized the evil laden elements from the OT and add its own without any overriding pacifist maxim. These evil laden elements became no-holds-barred and has triggered [also will trigger] SOME Muslims who are born naturally to have evil tendencies to commit terrible evils and violence.
Surely you were right then and have some intellectual basis to reach that conclusion, i.e. the Quran is filled with violence. I don't believe you were stupid then and understood the evil laden elements wrongly.
What made you change your mind is merely the change in your psychology and not the literal facts of evil laden elements in the Quran. When you switch camp, you have to resort to denial of the intellectual truth to cover for that desperate psychology.
Re 5:60
5:60 by itself is obviously derogatory and dehumanizing to anyone whether it is in the OT, in the Quran or in any other texts directed at any human being.
Do you agree cursing and condemning other human beings in terms of apes and swine is itself derogatory?
To keep things in proper order. My views of the Qur'an and my opinion of it changed prior to my accepting Islam. I was living in a rural Texas county and had not had any contact with any Muslims for probably 30 years and had a dislike of anything Islamic. It was because my concept of the Qur'an changed my opinion of Islam changed and I accepted Islam. At the time I accepted Islam I did not think there were any Mosques in Texas and had not seen any Muslims in Texas. I was not a case of accepting Islam and as a result of changing my views about the Qur'an. My views of the Qur'an changed and as a result I accepted Islam. With no knowledge of how to perform Islam, just knowing I was was to say the Shahadah which I did the moment I realized I had been misunderstanding the Qur'an. It was then I began my continuing Journey on learning how to perform Islam.
It is not a question of the Qur'an plagiarizing the Jewish and Christian scriptures,the Qur'an is a condensed version of them. We do believe the Jews, Sabeeans and Christians performed Islam (some may still do) Islam is not new, we are simply doing what was taught and revealed to the Jews, Sabeeans and Christians.
Islam is what the Jews, Sabeeans and Christians originally did.
5:60 by itself is obviously derogatory and dehumanizing to anyone whether it is in the OT, in the Quran or in any other texts directed at any human being.
If it is coming from God, we have no right to judge Him. God has the right to do so for justifiable reasons. No human being has such right.
Further, no human being has the right to dehumanize another human being. But this is not the case with God who gave humans life. No human being has the right to even exist if s/he is not serving the purpose of his/her existence in the sight of God.
Quote:
Do you agree cursing and condemning other human beings in terms of apes and swine is itself derogatory?
Yes; cursing and condemning "other human beings" in terms of apes and swines is itself derogatory.
Now my questiom:
Which human beings specifically are mentioned in these terms in the Qur'an? Were they living at the time of revelation of the Qur'an or is it only a reference to a certain people in the past before the Qur'an was revealed?
Islam is what the Jews, Sabeeans and Christians originally did.
That is exactly how I understand from several verses of the Qur'an.
Islam is neither new nor Muhammadanism as even Muhammad's religion (deen) was submitting to Allah, as was of Jews and of Christians and Sabeans. This is why the only religion accepted by Allah is "al-islam" (submitting to Allah as in 3:85). "Judaism" and "Christianity" are the names given by people themselves (not by Allah) as religion OF certain group of people or the folowers of a certain person respectively. It is religion OF those people rather than what they had to do or the path they had to walk on in their lives. This is clearly reflected in each groups' covenant with God.
If it is coming from God, we have no right to judge Him. God has the right to do so for justifiable reasons. No human being has such right.
Further, no human being has the right to dehumanize another human being. But this is not the case with God who gave humans life. No human being has the right to even exist if s/he is not serving the purpose of his/her existence in the sight of God.
Yes; cursing and condemning "other human beings" in terms of apes and swines is itself derogatory.
Now my questiom:
Which human beings specifically are mentioned in these terms in the Qur'an? Were they living at the time of revelation of the Qur'an or is it only a reference to a certain people in the past before the Qur'an was revealed?
The problem is the words of Allah is read by all sorts of people from the good, the bad and the ugly. There are also the fools and the idiots. In addition there are the evil prone, i.e. those who are naturally born with evil tendencies.
Then there is the inevitable DUCK-RABBIT scenario in reality with human beings.
With the above reality, an all powerful God should not have included all the evil laden elements with possible DUCK-RABBIT elements to influence the evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence.
Now the fact is the Quran contains lots of evil laden elements.
Because it contain so much evil laden elements it could not have authored by an all knowing, all powerful and all-Good God.
If the Quran was not written by an all Good God, then it was authored by a human or group of people which is most likely to be the case.
It is because the Quran was written by human[s] with evil laden elements but taken to be from an all powerful god, that the evil elements [DUCK-RABBIT] trigger the evil prone Muslims [SOME] to commit terrible evils and violence.
The Quran was presented as a guide to all mankind [Muslims].
Therefore whatever is in the Quran are to be abstracted as principles to be followed by all Muslims.
Since it is a guide for all Muslims the Quran should not include dehumanizing words [regardless of who and when they are addressed to] so there will be no opportunity for any one to perceive it wrongly.
I have given you an example of Buddhism which is a wiser religion that it do not include any leading evil elements in its sutras which will enable an idiotic evil prone Buddhists to commit violence in the name of the religion or the Buddha.
Note the Quran dehumanize the Jews as apes and swines and some Muslims will be influenced to have the same dehumanizing attitudes against the Jews.
This is how it is turned into reality and therefrom real violence.
I have answered honestly your question about dehumanizing other human beings. This should have registered!
Instead you not only did not answer my question but also have begun to parrtot the same old boring words that have been addressed many times in this forum.
Are you now willing to answer my question about apes and swines or not?
Which human beings specifically are mentioned in these terms in the Qur'an? Were they living at the time of revelation of the Qur'an or is it only a reference to a certain people in the past before the Qur'an was revealed?
Note with reference to 5:60,
5:60 Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.
In 5.59 Allah was referring to Jews and Christians but 5:60 is a general situation with reference to non-Muslims [idolaters and others] who,
Allah had cursed,
Allah was angry with and
Allah has turned some into apes and swine.
Your Questions: Which human beings specifically are mentioned in these terms in the Qur'an?
No specific group of human being were mentioned in 5:60.
What was mentioned were those human beings who were cursed and Allah was angry with, plus those who pray to idols.
Were they living at the time of revelation of the Qur'an or is it only a reference to a certain people in the past before the Qur'an was revealed? Allah spoke in the past tense so it refer to people in the past before the Quran was revealed.
My conclusion is the way as presented in the Quran, it is dehumanizing to non-Muslims.
Based on the topic of dehumanizing which is a topic I raised, therefore I can do what is relevant with it. I had mentioned the Jews are also attacked with the 'ape' label.
Quote:
2:65 And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!
7:166 So when they took pride in that which they had been forbidden, We said unto them: Be ye apes despised and loathed!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khallif
Instead you not only did not answer my question but also have begun to parrot the same old boring words that have been addressed many times in this forum.
As said above, based on the topic of dehumanizing which is a topic I raised, therefore I can do what is relevant with it.
What do you meant 'boring'.
The above dehumanizing mode from the Quran [human authored] has terrible consequences where many Muslims are brainwashed to hate the Jews especially in this case and the consequences is real terrible evils and violence committed on many innocents Jews because of these verses [partly].
5:60 Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.
In 5.59 Allah was referring to Jews and Christians but 5:60 is a general situation with reference to non-Muslims [idolaters and others] who,
Allah had cursed,
Allah was angry with and
Allah has turned some into apes and swine.
Your Questions: Which human beings specifically are mentioned in these terms in the Qur'an?
No specific group of human being were mentioned in 5:60.
What was mentioned were those human beings who were cursed and Allah was angry with, plus those who pray to idols.
Read the verses again!
The verse 5:59 mentions those who were mocking. The verse 5:60 mentions the worse ones in the past than the current mocking ones in 5:59.
Quote:
Were they living at the time of revelation of the Qur'an or is it only a reference to a certain people in the past before the Qur'an was revealed? Allah spoke in the past tense so it refer to people in the past before the Quran was revealed.
YES, you got that one right. It was the people in the past and not the Jews present in Madina who were only mocking.
The verse 5:59 mentions those who were mocking. The verse 5:60 mentions the worse ones in the past than the current mocking ones in 5:59.
YES, you got that one right. It was the people in the past and not the Jews present in Madina who were only mocking.
Your view indicate your shallowness with regard to understand the Quran in its whole context.
On the whole context the purpose of the Quran to remind people to worship Allah by entering into a covenant with Allah to be a Muslim [in general, loose].
As a reminder Allah warned in the Quran if the people don't submit and worship Allah, then they will suffer dire and terrible consequences on Earth and in hell. Allah used examples of the past and similitudes to get the message across to non-Muslims.
There are many verses in the Quran starting with "Travel the land and look at the evidences of how the disbelievers of the past were punished by Allah ... with terrible sufferings, destructions and catastrophe"
Where in 5:59 is mentioned those who were mocking? Note 5:59 below; Note how I put the relevant notes in [] to facilitating reading and understanding the Quran. I did it for all the 6,236 verses.
5:59. Say [O Muhammad]: O, People of the Scripture! Do ye blame us [Muslims] for aught else than that we [Muslims] believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us [Muslims] and that which was revealed aforetime, and because most of you [Jews and Christians] are evil livers [trangressors]?
5:59 condemned the People of the Scripture, i.e. Jews and Christians as evil livers. There is no mention of "mocking." 5:59 is distinct from 5:60.
5:60 is a general emphasis as reminder to all non-Muslims including the idolaters are turned into apes and swine in the worst case arising from Allah's anger and cursing.
Because of this and other verses it influenced many to view non-Muslims in such a dehumanizing mode and even brainwashed a small child to do it from young, note the video I link. That is the evil reality stemming from the Quran.
[note a god that is angry and cursing is an immature God.. actually it is a reflection of Muhummad's psychology not God's].
The above are in the past tense and they are all reminders and threats to non-Muslims if they don't submit and worship Allah they will suffer similar consequences as those Jews, Christians, idolaters, non-Muslims of the past as evidenced.
The point is if it is God who authored the Quran, God would not have so immature to use such dehumanizing mode in using 'apes' and 'swines' in reference to others. Such barbaric and dehumanizing attitude can only come from a human [i.e. Muhammad] or group of people.
Eeman is secreted in the heart and is between Allah and the person.
But we look for good abilities like:
Respect
Praying (5 prayers)
Honest (no lies)
Control his anger
Forgiving
Loving
Remembers Allah much
Fears Allah
Avoids sins
Does good deeds
Loves Allah
Where in 5:59 is mentioned those who were mocking? Note 5:59 below; Note how I put the relevant notes in [] to facilitating reading and understanding the Quran. I did it for all the 6,236 verses.
5:59. Say [O Muhammad]: O, People of the Scripture! Do ye blame us [Muslims] for aught else than that we [Muslims] believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us [Muslims] and that which was revealed aforetime, and because most of you [Jews and Christians] are evil livers [trangressors]?
Your notes are irrelevant and often wrong. These verses are addressed to "believers". And translation of "fasiqun" is not "evil doers".
Quote:
5:59 condemned the People of the Scripture, i.e. Jews and Christians as evil livers. There is no mention of "mocking." 5:59 is distinct from 5:60.
People mentioned in 5:60 as apes and swines were worse than those in 5:59. Those mentioned in 5:59 are those mentioned in 5:57 and 5:58. Get it?
Read thr Qur'an in context, ignoring not a single verse.
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