Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
That is the problem with your narrow understanding when you have read the Quran 6-7 times only.
In addition your intellectual capacity is low when you insist there are no degrees to any term, e.g. Muslim [specific], Mumin [specific], Mushin [specific], even half/quarter black or white in mixed race situations, etc.
Allah recognized grades, degrees and variations in one being a Muslim or Mumin, note
8:4. Those [Muslims] are they who are in truth believers. For them [Muslims] are grades [degrees] (of honour) with their Lord, and pardon, and a bountiful provision.
Note there are many such verses.
Where in the Qur'an is "Muslim specific term" and "Muslim loose term"?
You have been mentioning these terms for a long time now. It's about time that you show me the verses you have read more than 50 times in which are these terms stated. Quote the verses that actually term the Muslims as "Muslim specific" and "Muslim loose"!
We are not discussing someone's station, level or status in the sight of Allah but the terms "loose" and the term "specific" . in the Qur'an.
Quote:
So you are saying Allah is daft as well?
Note in 8:4, Allah stated there are grades to Muslims.
(a)You are lying that in 8:4 Allah said there are terms (specific and loose) to Muslims. Muslimeen (Muslims) aren't even mentined in there but only Mu'minun (Believers).
(b) In the context (read 8:2), the attributes are mentioned of the only true Believers (Mu'minun).
(c) If you insist that these verses (8:2-4) are about Muslims as the only true Mu'minun (Believers) then your argument that Mu'min is better than Muslim goes out of the window.
Do you still want to keep up with your perceived brilliant argument?
Quote:
You don't seem or deliberately deny context. All Mumin, Mushin and Muttagin are Muslim [specific]. Not All Muslims [loose] or Muslims [specific] are Mumin, or Mushin or Muttagin
Get the point?
Your question makes no sense unless you are contradicting yourself here.
ALL Muslims do believe and do have eeman. Therefore ALL Muslims are true Mu'minun. You have already tried your best to say so by quoting 8:4 above and mentioning its context (which is 8:2-4).
Quote:
I suggest you update yourself on basic Law of Contract.
There are models of contracts but there is no actual contract unless the two parties agree to it by signing it or via implied agreements.
The Quran contain a pro-forma* covenant amongst other doctrines and principles and there is no official covenant until the person deliberately enter into the agreement with Allah via the Shahada [implied or explicitly].
* it has to be a pro-forma because Allah will not introduce a new one every time some one want to convert to Islam via submission and "signing" the contract.
Once the person has entered into a covenant with Allah, he has submitted [specific] to Allah and therefrom has to comply with the terms and conditions as stated in the Quran.
Now apply this understanding to the real situation. When does someone become a Believer (Mu'min)? When he says Shahada or before that?
Perhaps brother Woodrow might help you with this.
Quote:
I have given you a detailed explanation of my basis.
Note in 49:14 Allah stated [via Muhammad] submit [proper] precede BELIEVE [proper].
Wrong! They had never said Shahada. You have no basis. Further, you have pointed out 8:4 in context with 8:2-3 that Muslims are the only true Beliviers (Mu'minun). Yet in 49:14 Allah has said that they did not believe at all (eeman had not entered their hearts). How could they be true believing Muslims?
Quote:
As I have mentioned the odds are against you because you are the rare few amongst the 1.6++ Muslims who has such a view.
As such, I suggest you reflect deeply on your wrong view.
Rare few do reflect deeply, the reason they are rare (special) and not common (loose). :-)
I am beginning to like using your loose terms. I may as well take you on by using the language (terms) you understand.
Quote:
Note my views which is the same with the all the Islamic scholars I have read, i.e.
I had stated "Muslims" in 3:102 is used in the general, wide and loose sense.
5:7 is merely a general exhortation to comply with the terms of the covenant.
3:102 is specific that believers must die as Muslims. 5:7 directs the believers to obey the laws in the Qur'an and become Muslims from then onwards as this chapter includes the last laws (5:3) revealed for the Believers to obey and be Muslims as they had already said that they hear the Qur'an being recited to them and they have accepted to obey. The terms of the cvnant are now all written down, heard, accepted and now must be adhered to. Islam is thus perfected.
Quote:
The point is the term 'believe,' 'believers' are used in various senses throughout the Quran and one must be sensitive to the contexts, i.e. either in the loose/wide or in the specific sense.
Somehow your defense is to denial the existence of the use of the wide and specific sense of a term in the linguistic perspective. You are denying the truth in this case.
We are not talking here about the linguistic terms but the Qur'anic terms. So stay on topic!
The only terms that matter here the most are the Arabic terms in the Qur'an.
Frankly you got to be more serious with this issue between loose and wide, or loose and strict.
I am quite serious with the terms Mu'mineen/Mu'minun and Muslimeen/Muslimun. You are talking about the terms that are not in the Qur'an. Show me where in the Qur'an are your terms "specific", "loose", "wide" or "strict" stated!!!
When we speak of corruption in the scriptures it is not so much that the words have been changed but that the people have ceased submitting as instructed
also the Torah is in 2 forms the Written Torah (tanakh) and the oral Torah (Talmud) which was not to be written but was written in the 2nd Century CE For a Jewish opinion see: Judaism 101: Torah
Overallwe can still find a very large portion of the Torah and we are still obligated to follow it. To the extent of what was the original revelation.
The Inil of Jesus(a.s) was never saved and no longer exists. We get a hint of what it contained through what might be actual quotes of Jesus(a.s.) but those can not be verified."The Gospel of Thomas" which was followed by the Thomason Christians in Kerala India by St Thomas, possibly while Jesus (a.s.) still walked the Earth just may contain actual quotes from the Injeel The Church in Kerala was founded before the Bible was written and until they converted to Catholicism their Bible consisted only of the "Gospel of Thomas"
It is possible that contains quotes from the Injeel.
The Bible throughout the centuries has varied in length from denomination to denomination the Shortest being the Thomasons who considered the Bible to be the a single book the "Gospel of Thomas" with no other books to the Ethiopian Bible (still in use) which has 81 books the standard Protestant bibles of today have 66 books and the standard Catholic bibles have 73 books, the First edition of the KJV had 80 books. Some other early Christian Bibles were "Gospel of the Nazarenes" "Gospel of the Hebrews" and "Gospel of the Ebionites"
To verify the current Torah and Gospels is completely and exactly the same as the original revelation that was revealed by Allah is impossible.
On this basis we can conclude, from the Quran and Islamic point of view, the present Torah and Gospel are corrupted, i.e. different from the original revelation by Allah.
Quote:
Overall we can still find a very large portion of the Torah and we are still obligated to follow it. To the extent of what was the original revelation.
True there are similarities between the Torah, Gospel and the Quran. That is no issue.
However from the Islamic point of view, the Quran [via Muhammad within 610-632] is the overriding words of Allah for all Islamic matters.
Therefore what is in the Torah and Gospel but not in the Quran should be rejected.
If this is the case, the Muslims might as well ignore the Gospels and the Torah.
When we speak of corruption in the scriptures it is not so much that the words have been changed but that the people have ceased submitting as instructed.
You are inventing your own interpretation.
The implication of changes and altering texts are clearly mentioned in the Quran. I have provided some quotes.
The Jews and Christians are submitting to a God in accordance to their holy texts.
It is just their holy texts are different from the Quran of Allah with reference to some critical points.
Where in the Qur'an is "Muslim specific term" and "Muslim loose term"?
You have been mentioning these terms for a long time now. It's about time that you show me the verses you have read more than 50 times in which are these terms stated. Quote the verses that actually term the Muslims as "Muslim specific" and "Muslim loose"!
We are not discussing someone's station, level or status in the sight of Allah but the terms "loose" and the term "specific" . in the Qur'an.
Generally in communication the author do not specify a term is used in the loose or strict term. Often one has to infer whether it is loose or strict from the context.
[In exception cases a good author will qualify whether a term is used in the 'loose' or 'strict' sense to ensure he get the true meaning across.
I have proven many times [which is also done by all Islamic scholars I have read] by referring to 49:14 & 17 as the determining verse that differentiate a Muslim from a Mumin.
In addition there are many other verses that support this point, e.g. the 5 pillars of Islam, the 6 pillars of Mu'min, the ? pillars of Mushin, etc.
This is a matter of being more intelligent instead of reading the Quran blindly.
Quote:
(a)You are lying that in 8:4 Allah said there are terms (specific and loose) to Muslims. Muslimeen (Muslims) aren't even mentined in there but only Mu'minun (Believers).
(b) In the context (read 8:2), the attributes are mentioned of the only true Believers (Mu'minun).
(c) If you insist that these verses (8:2-4) are about Muslims as the only true Mu'minun (Believers) then your argument that Mu'min is better than Muslim goes out of the window.
Do you still want to keep up with your perceived brilliant argument?
You stated all Muslims are the same. My reference of 8:4 was to prove that Allah stated not all Muslims are the same. Muslims progress in degrees as in 8:4 and are rewarded accordingly whether they are Muslims [loose], Muslims[specific], mumin [specific] or Mushin [specific].
Yes 8:2-4 refer to mu'min in this case. This prove that mu'min must work extra harder than Muslims [specific].
However my point 'Muslims are graded in degrees' and in this case mu'min are also Muslims [loose]. So there is no issue on this.
But my general point is Allah stated all Muslims are graded based on their deeds in their Illiyin on Judgment Day. I happened to pick 8:2 but there are many other such verses to support the general point that all Muslims are graded and rewarded accordingly on Judgment Day.
You don't seem or deliberately deny context.
All Mumin, Mushin and Muttagin are Muslim [specific].
Not All Muslims [loose] or Muslims [specific] are Mumin, or Mushin or Muttagin
Get the point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
Your question makes no sense unless you are contradicting yourself here.
Note this example;
All surgeons, psychiatrists, gynecologists, GPs are doctors [loose].
But,
Not all doctors [loose] are surgeons, psychiatrists, or gynecologists.
Surely the above make sense, agree?
The above re doctors [loose] is the same as the following,
All Mumin, Mushin and Muttagin are Muslim [specific].
Not All Muslims [loose] or Muslims [specific] are Mumin, or Mushin or Muttagin.
This is because a mu'min [specific] and a mushin must first be a Muslim [specific].
Get it?
Quote:
ALL Muslims do believe and do have eeman. Therefore ALL Muslims are true Mu'minun. You have already tried your best to say so by quoting 8:4 above and mentioning its context (which is 8:2-4).
Now apply this understanding to the real situation. When does someone become a Believer (Mu'min)? When he says Shahada or before that?
Perhaps brother Woodrow might help you with this.
When a person declares the Shahada he is primarily a submitter who has submitted [proper] and he become a Muslim [loose].
He is also a "believer" but is only a believer in the loose sense.
When someone declare the shahada, he is not a believer in the strict sense, i.e. not a mumin [specific].
To be a mumin [strict] one has to have perform the 6 pillars of eemans to a reasonable level.
This is where in 49:14 Allah conveyed the wandering Arabs has not BELIEVED, i.e. they have not acquired strong eeman and faith has not yet entered their hearts.
Quote:
Wrong! They had never said Shahada. You have no basis. Further, you have pointed out 8:4 in context with 8:2-3 that Muslims are the only true Beliviers (Mu'minun). Yet in 49:14 Allah has said that they did not believe at all (eeman had not entered their hearts). How could they be true believing Muslims?
How do you know they never said the Shahada.
In 49:17 Allah stated the wandering Arabs has embraced/entered-into Islam. This implied they have stated the Shahada in some form but not the modern form.
Even though Allah acknowledged the wandering Arabs had merely submitted in 49:17 Allah conveyed they has not BELIEVED.
There are appear to be a contradiction.
However the point is the "BELIEVE" in this case is BELIEVE [strict] not believe [loose].
In this case the wandering Arabs were only Muslims [loose or specific] but there were not mumin [strict].
Quote:
Rare few do reflect deeply, the reason they are rare (special) and not common (loose). :-)
I am beginning to like using your loose terms. I may as well take you on by using the language (terms) you understand.
Actually I know you are the only one and your views don't make sense at all in the overall context of the Quran.
You have to resort [wrongly] to the wandering Arabs submitting to Muhammad which is blasphemous in the context of the Quran.
Quote:
3:102 is specific that believers must die as Muslims. 5:7 directs the believers to obey the laws in the Qur'an and become Muslims from then onwards as this chapter includes the last laws (5:3) revealed for the Believers to obey and be Muslims as they had already said that they hear the Qur'an being recited to them and they have accepted to obey. The terms of the cvnant are now all written down, heard, accepted and now must be adhered to. Islam is thus perfected.
There is no issue if you say believers [Muslims in general] must die as Muslims [loose].
But it is not likely All Muslims-in-general [believers-loose] will die as Mumin [believer-specific].
Quote:
We are not talking here about the linguistic terms but the Qur'anic terms. So stay on topic!
What made you state that??
Muslims and all cannot divorce the Quran from the principles of linguistic. To do so is ridiculous.
One of the essential principles underlying the Quran and all religious texts are from linguistic.
Quote:
The only terms that matter here the most are the Arabic terms in the Qur'an.
What matters is reality, otherwise you will be dealing with illusions. Therefore the Arabic terms in the Quran must comply with the principles of reality and linguistic.
Quote:
I am quite serious with the terms Mu'mineen/Mu'minun and Muslimeen/Muslimun. You are talking about the terms that are not in the Qur'an. Show me where in the Qur'an are your terms "specific", "loose", "wide" or "strict" stated!!!
This is getting ridiculous.
I stated whatever we discussed it must conform with the principles of reality [not illusions] and linguistics, semantics are its principles.
These term "specific", "loose", "wide" or "strict" in relations to language are elements of linguistics/semantics and use of language. If you don't subscribe to these elements then you are a very bad communicator. Perhaps this is the reason for the mess you are presenting for your lack of refinements in linguistics and semantics issues.
To verify the current Torah and Gospels is completely and exactly the same as the original revelation that was revealed by Allah is impossible.
On this basis we can conclude, from the Quran and Islamic point of view, the present Torah and Gospel are corrupted, i.e. different from the original revelation by Allah.
Your conclusion is rejected by the Qur'an.
2:41 And believe that which I reveal, confirming that which you possess already, and be not first to disbelieve therein, and part not My revelation for trifling price, and keep your duty unto Me.
Generally in communication the author do not specify a term is used in the loose or strict term. Often one has to infer whether it is loose or strict from the context.
Why would the Author not do it but you do it? Do you know better than the Author?
Note this example;
All surgeons, psychiatrists, gynecologists, GPs are doctors [loose].
But,
Not all doctors [loose] are surgeons, psychiatrists, or gynecologists.
Surely the above make sense, agree?
The above re doctors [loose] is the same as the following,
All Mumin, Mushin and Muttagin are Muslim [specific].
Not All Muslims [loose] or Muslims [specific] are Mumin, or Mushin or Muttagin.
This is because a mu'min [specific] and a mushin must first be a Muslim [specific].
Get it?
Your example is crap in this case.
All Muslims have to be Mu'min, Mu'hsin and Muttaqi. The attributes of Mu'min, Mu'hsin and Muttaqi must be in Muslim. That's why we are to die as Muslims (having all the attributes).
A Mu'min's attribute is that he has eeman.
A Mu'hsin's attribute is that he does good to other people.
A Muttaqi's attribute is that he has taqwa.
A Muslim's attributes are (a) having eeman, (b) doing good to others, (c) having taqwa and (d) submitting to Allah.
2:41 And believe that which I reveal, confirming that which you possess already, and be not first to disbelieve therein, and part not My revelation for trifling price, and keep your duty unto Me.
The above may be applicable a past situation but is impossible to verify to the present Torah and Gospel.
Can you verify and confirm the above statement to the present Torah and Gospels?
The other point I mentioned is;
Why do Allah warned Muslims, the Jews and Christians will do what is possible to convert the Muslims?
If the present Torah and Gospels are the Quran-of-old from Allah, then Allah has no reason to warn Muslims against the Jews and Christians.
All Muslims have to be Mu'min, Mu'hsin and Muttaqi. The attributes of Mu'min, Mu'hsin and Muttaqi must be in Muslim. That's why we are to die as Muslims (having all the attributes).
A Mu'min's attribute is that he has eeman.
A Mu'hsin's attribute is that he does good to other people.
A Muttaqi's attribute is that he has taqwa.
A Muslim's attributes are (a) having eeman, (b) doing good to others, (c) having taqwa and (d) submitting to Allah.
That is why we are not to die unless Muslims.
As usual you deliberately omitted to deal with terms in the loose and strict sense.
I suggest you go through my point line by line and show me where you disagree.
Quote:
A Muslim's attributes are (a) having eeman, (b) doing good to others, (c) having taqwa and (d) submitting to Allah.
This statement is non-sensical.
Prove to me that can apply to this case;
1. At 12.00 noon X declared the Shahada, i.e. he submitted.
2. At 12.01 X is officially a Muslim.
As a Muslim at 12.01 did X has the following qualities?
(a) having eeman,
(b) doing good to others,
(c) having taqwa and
(d) submitting to Allah
the only sure quality X has is (d). X could not have perform the 6 pillars of eeman and (b) within one minute.
Therefore your definition of 'Muslim' has holes and is wrong.
However my view will make sense without any holes, i.e.
When X submitted [based on believe or no believe -emotions etc.] he is a Muslim [loose].
Then X can progress as a Muslim [specific] then to the various stages, Mu'min, Mushin or Muttagin.
Btw, you are the only one I know who has such weird disorganized ideas on the topic of 'Muslim and Mu'min'.
As usual you deliberately omitted to deal with terms in the loose and strict sense.
I suggest you go through my point line by line and show me where you disagree.
This statement is non-sensical.
Prove to me that can apply to this case;
1. At 12.00 noon X declared the Shahada, i.e. he submitted.
2. At 12.01 X is officially a Muslim.
As a Muslim at 12.01 did X has the following qualities?
(a) having eeman,
(b) doing good to others,
(c) having taqwa and
(d) submitting to Allah
the only sure quality X has is (d). X could not have perform the 6 pillars of eeman and (b) within one minute.
Therefore your definition of 'Muslim' has holes and is wrong.
However my view will make sense without any holes, i.e.
When X submitted [based on believe or no believe -emotions etc.] he is a Muslim [loose].
Then X can progress as a Muslim [specific] then to the various stages, Mu'min, Mushin or Muttagin.
Btw, you are the only one I know who has such weird disorganized ideas on the topic of 'Muslim and Mu'min'.
Now I understand how you understand one to be Muslim; he must obey all the commands in one second. How daft!
A Muslim does not progress to be a Mu'min but he is already a Mu'min the moment he believes even before proclaiming Shahada. The moment he declares, he is not only believing but submitting too. Then he carries on being Muslim through various actions and deeds required of him that are also within the requiremnts for Mu'hsin and Muttaqi.
You can do good to others but if you do not believe and do not submit to Allah you are not a Muslim but unbeliever.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
