Quran's Challenge to Produce Another of the Like (woman, pork, heaven)

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by Continuum

@Khalif

Suggest you listen to this video to get an idea of the counters that prove why the present Quran cannot be exactly the same as the original recited by Muhammad [if that is a case].


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-4RH6Xv_Vs

Jay Smith referred to the earliest 6 copies of textual Quran [see below] available for investigation and they all are incomplete and has lots of errors and omissions.

1 Hijazi manuscripts
1.1 Sana'a manuscript
1.2 Codex Parisino-petropolitanus
1.3 BnF Arabe 328(c) and Birmingham fragment
1.4 Tübingen manuscript
2 Kufic manuscripts
2.1 Topkapi manuscript
2.2 Samarkand Kufic Quran

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Quranic_manuscripts

Do they contain errors or are they just surviving remnents of older scripts. Up until the Uthman written Qur'ans were pretty much just memory tools for the writer and not intended for wide distribution. Keep in mind few people of the era could read and write.

The balance between Hafiz and written Qur'an seems to be a pretty effective means of keeping it in it's original words

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

Do they contain errors or are they just surviving remnents of older scripts. Up until the Uthman written Qur'ans were pretty much just memory tools for the writer and not intended for wide distribution. Keep in mind few people of the era could read and write.

This man in video sounds like advertising for Jesus Christ. A typical evangelical freak, talking a lot but empty talk, and no mention of any Hafiz of the Qur'an.

The balance between Hafiz and written Qur'an seems to be a pretty effective means of keeping it in it's original words

Absolutely!

As you know, Hafiz does not mean only the memorizer of the Qur'an but the One Who Protects/Guards it is also Hafiz of it. I wonder whether that Hafiz/Guardian also lives in Casablanca!

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Khalif

No. I am insisting that what I stated here is the only possibility.

Originally Posted by Continuum

In that case there is no 100% certainty from you and thus there is also the possibility you are wrong.

You are reading in my statement something you want to imagine. When I state, "the only possibility", it means no other possibility.

Originally Posted by Continuum

What you are saying is, there is the possibility [high] that present Quran is exactly the same as the original.

No. You are saying that; not I.

Originally Posted by Continuum

From my arguments I have presented, it is more likely possible that you are more wrong than right.

From my argument, you cannot be right. From your statement here, you cannot be right if I am right. You can be right only if I am completely wrong.

Originally Posted by Khalif

Oral transmission and textual transmission on their own have limitations but when one is backed by the other, any limitation of one is completely eliminated. The Uthman Qur'an was established with the backing from both textual (in possession of Hafsa) and oral (memory of at least two Hafiz confirming the text).

Originally Posted by Continuum

Completely eliminated?? That is impossible.
Do you have any evidence to show that the Uthman Quran Copy [whatever the partial chapters] are exactly the same as the present Quran? Any links to any researched evidence.

Millions of Hafiz all over the world, with no contact with each other for centuries, reciting the whole Qur'an exactly the same way word by word with no variations. Not only possible but absolutely certain. They are the best research and the best evidence.

Originally Posted by Khalif

That's the beauty of the preservation of the Qur'an; there have never been variation even by one word ever. If there had ever been any variation, it would have been carried on from teachers to students ever since then and we would have been unable to control the variations. No variation is clearly the proof of preservation of the Qur'an from the outset.

Originally Posted by Continuum

Unless there is the original copy written down by Muhammad himself there are then, there is no way [limited by fallible human nature] the present Quran can be the same as the original Quran.

You concentrate on written text only and do not take into account the Hafiz preserving the Qur'an from the outset without any broken chain. You will be better off in your aim if you claim, and prove, that at a certain time during the last 1400 years, all the Hafiz had been killed crossing the red sea.

Originally Posted by Khalif

You don't even know what is meant by being "standardized". To me, it is being double checked and double checked again for its accuracy in memory and in text form at the same time. There was no chance of any Hafiz allowing any change at any time.

Originally Posted by Continuum

Don't be too cocksure yourself on what I meant by standardization. The only reasonable sure of the Quran being standardize is when there is a textual copy for comparison it is the same at all times.
The Uthman copy cannot be the standard copy because it is partial.

It is the same standard copy as the Abu Bakr standard copy in the memory of many Hafiz even at that time.

Originally Posted by Continuum

Memory is a VERY limited faculty and thus very vulnerable to error.
Example -limitation of memory:
1. A gang of 10 committed a murder.
2. Obviously they think they can "remember" the details of the murder in their memory.
3. They are aware they cannot run far and will be caught.
4. To deny the murder they have to come up with a consistent story, alibi, etc.
5. So they decide to get together to tell their story.
6. When they got together and discuss what to say to the police they [naturally as humans] noted there were differences from what they had recalled from memory.
7. The point is they must all be consistent when they are questioned by the police independently.
8. So what they do is to make sure there is one standard answer when they are questioned.
9. To standardize they have to ignore the variations and stick to one version only.
10. They then have to implant the new story into the mind and remember it by hard, or write it down to facilitate their memory.
The above procedure [btw not event] is exactly the same as how the Quran was standardized as in 9.

LOL!
All the Hafiz of the world had to meet in Casablanca to “standardize” their memory, as if they were all criminals to be questioned by the Qur’an hating policemen. Any more bright ideas?

Originally Posted by Khalif

If you are thinking that there is no full textual copy of the original present today and any preserved Uthman Qur'an is incomplete in text then that would have been a perfect reason to have variation in recitations of millions of Hafiz all over the world.

Originally Posted by Continuum

I thought I mentioned the Uthman Quran is incomplete, i.e. ONLY 42+ chapters out of the 114 chapters note:

But you are ignoring my point that this would be more of reason that could lead to variation in words of Hafiz reciting the Qur’an in different countries of the world. There only answer is that they have preserved the original without any variations.

Originally Posted by Khalif

Can you think of a reason why they are all reciting the exact e complete Qur'an all over the world today?

Originally Posted by Continuum

Note point 9 in the example above.

You mean they must have met in Casablanca or in Singapore to cook a “standardized” memory?

Originally Posted by Continuum

At some point in time there was a consensus by humans to ensure the Quran is the same to ensure its credibility.

So they all decided to make their lie credible in the eyes of Qur’an haters but did not care if they went to hell for changing the word of Allah! It is a typical thought of unbelievers that the Qur’an has been cooked up “at some point in time” after Muhammad (pbuh).

Originally Posted by Continuum

The time can be established by tracing the present Quran to is earliest exact full copy. [need to find out which is this].

That will only prove one thing; the earliest preserved full Qur’anic text. It will still not prove that the Hafiz all over the world had variations in reciting the Qur’an but decided to have a “standardized memory stick”.

Originally Posted by Continuum

This is a very logical and rational question.
There is no way you can confirm every Hafiz [thousands or millions] has been reciting the same Quran until the Standardize textual copy was available.

There is no way you can prove otherwise. There were Hafiz during the days of Abu Bakr and Umar as well as Uthman and Ali.

Originally Posted by Continuum

Note the example of the limitation of memory I gave above.

That does not apply in this case where there were too many reciting the exact same way. In fact, “limitation of memory” is more a reason that there should have been variation in recitation from one remote place to another remote place even during the 1st Century Hijrah.

Originally Posted by Khalif

No. Instead, you are trying to do so, and you have absolutely no hope of succeeding. I have no psychological reason; never have, despite your parroting. You are only imagining so! Perhaps you have never read my status.

Originally Posted by Continuum

DNA wise ALL humans has that basic unavoidable inherent existential psychological issue within their psyche. The difference is merely the degree of control [modulating capability] a person has over that existential impulse.

This is where the control of Nafs comes in. The fact that despite not believing in the Qur’an, your 50+ reading of the Qur’an and continued discussion here in this forum is to me a clear proof that you are having doubt in your Nafs that you could be wrong. I don’t go to Atheist forums to satisfy my Self (Nafs) about God. I have learnt from the Qur’an to control my Nafs.

Originally Posted by Continuum

The majority of humans [you being one of them] has weaker modulating capability to control that existential impulse and thus your desperation and has no other choice but to defend the illogical and irrationality, i.e. forcing square pegs into round holes.

No. It is the other way round; your weaker modulating capability to control that existential impulse thus your desperation has no other choice but to attacking the Qur’an because it mentions hell for unbelievers. Arguing here IS like forcing square pegs into round holes in desperation.

Originally Posted by Khalif

The Qur'an is never going to be changed by even one letter. Never!

Originally Posted by Continuum

It not likely it will not be changed from now onwards.

It will not be changed unless all the Hafiz meet again in Casablanca to have it “standardized” in their memory..

Originally Posted by Continuum

But the fact of human nature is from the day in 610AD Muhammad recited [if that is the case] till the Whole Quran was standardize in textual form, we can be 100% sure there will be lots of variations between the various orally and textually transmitted versions.

If that is the best you can do, I am certain that you will never see variation either in the text or in memory of Hafiz. Never!

Allah is Guardian of the Qur'an.

[15.9] Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its Guardian.

[juju33312]

Since the Quran was supposedly from the creator of the universe...is there ANYTHING profound in the Quran? No. Nothing. No advanced biology, mathematics, future predictions, how the pyramids were built, how to extract oil, astronomy...nothing. In fact, what little there is is wrong! There's nothing that could even be used in a grade school classroom!

There is no rational metaphysics, no usable epistemology and the ethics are abysmal. The people who read and memorize this book have no special skills...indeed Islam is backward!

Can anyone provide what they think is a 'profound' verse from the Quran??

Profound: penetrating or entering deeply into subjects of thought or knowledge; having deep insight or understanding

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by juju33312

Since the Quran was supposedly from the creator of the universe...is there ANYTHING profound in the Quran? No. Nothing. No advanced biology, mathematics, future predictions, how the pyramids were built, how to extract oil, astronomy...nothing. In fact, what little there is is wrong! There's nothing that could even be used in a grade school classroom!

There is no rational metaphysics, no usable epistemology and the ethics are abysmal. The people who read and memorize this book have no special skills...indeed Islam is backward!

Can anyone provide what they think is a 'profound' verse from the Quran??

Profound: penetrating or entering deeply into subjects of thought or knowledge; having deep insight or understanding

The Qur'an does not contain any message that was not revealed in previous Scripture. What is profound about it, is it is te last time those messages will be revealed. We are now swimr sink. no more life preservers will be thrown to us. we either get it right or we sink. Last warning. No more buses arriving to take us to Jannah. It is up to us as individuals to seek out Jannah. the days of anyone coming to take us by our hand have ended. We have the obligation to learns what our choices are and what the consequences are. we are now individually responsible to finding out what Allaah(saws) wants us to do. It is all about free choice and learning to make that choice through our own searching not listening to idiots in pulpits telling us how to get to heaven. We alone have the responsibility to learn and if we choose to be lazy and listen to rambling idiots that is our own choice and we will end up where they lead us.

[juju33312]

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

The Qur'an does not contain any message that was not revealed in previous Scripture. What is profound about it, is it is te last time those messages will be revealed. We are now swimr sink. no more life preservers will be thrown to us. we either get it right or we sink. Last warning. No more buses arriving to take us to Jannah. It is up to us as individuals to seek out Jannah. the days of anyone coming to take us by our hand have ended. We have the obligation to learns what our choices are and what the consequences are. we are now individually responsible to finding out what Allaah(saws) wants us to do. It is all about free choice and learning to make that choice through our own searching not listening to idiots in pulpits telling us how to get to heaven. We alone have the responsibility to learn and if we choose to be lazy and listen to rambling idiots that is our own choice and we will end up where they lead us.

So just a bunch of threats. Nothing profound. Nothing at all that one would expect from a creator of the entire universe.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

Do they contain errors or are they just surviving remnents of older scripts. Up until the Uthman written Qur'ans were pretty much just memory tools for the writer and not intended for wide distribution. Keep in mind few people of the era could read and write.

The balance between Hafiz and written Qur'an seems to be a pretty effective means of keeping it in it's original words

I know you have a hearing problem but if you can get someone to listen, note at 5:05, he stated based on findings of the experts,

1. None of the 6 manuscripts are from the 7th Centuries
2. Certainly the are not complete
3. All of them have changes, corrections and
4. Do not correspond to the existing Quran.

The above 4 reasons are sufficient to prove that the present Quran is different from the earliest texts and thus most like differently from the original as recited to Muhammad.

It is like the works of the Hafiz may be able to reflect the main ideas not definitely not 100% and the finer points.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Khalif

This man in video sounds like advertising for Jesus Christ. A typical evangelical freak, talking a lot but empty talk, and no mention of any Hafiz of the Qur'an.

You have some of sick prejudice. I think this rubbed off from and is the influence of the Quran which condemns Christianity and Christians in the worst terrible manners, and the same to Jews and idolaters.

Note this guy mentioned he is referring to the research of two Islamic scholars from Turkey and not from his own interpretations.

If you have any intellectual credibility you should listen to his views and understand [not agree] his points and do further research in the Islamic researchers he mentioned to verify to the truths of what is mentioned.

Absolutely!

As you know, Hafiz does not mean only the memorizer of the Qur'an but the One Who Protects/Guards it is also Hafiz of it. I wonder whether that Hafiz/Guardian also lives in Casablanca!

It is human nature and by default the mental tool of memory is very limited and vulnerable to errors and omission.

Unless there is an original text copy to compare with, there no way there can be a 100% reproduction of the original via memory especially when there are 6,236 verses and that is in the 7th century where the average literal and intellectual standards is very low.

[mahasn sawresho]

Narrated by Muhammad ibn Ishaq, and pronunciation: (I've dropped a verse of stoning, Big Ten and feedings, was in the paper under the bed in my house, and when he complained to the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him Glna his command, entered Animal us Being eaten )
Narrated by Imam Ahmad in his "Musnad" (43/343), and Ibn Majah in "Sunan" (No. / 1944) and pronunciation: (When he died Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him and his death Glna domestic income Animal us Being eaten )
The talk is about the big states of nursing missing from the Koran
Why an animal ate these verses ????
Where being awarded ????

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Khalif

From my argument, you cannot be right. From your statement here, you cannot be right if I am right. You can be right only if I am completely wrong.

I am referring to a default of human nature and you are arguing against it.
You are trying to insist that humans can be perfect like God, thus you cannot be right at all.

Millions of Hafiz all over the world, with no contact with each other for centuries, reciting the whole Qur'an exactly the same way word by word with no variations. Not only possible but absolutely certain. They are the best research and the best evidence.

Millions since when?
If you refer to the present [I don't think there are millions anyway, max 50,000 is possible], then that is possible because they were all referring to a standard copy of Quran since perhaps the 1200s.

Hafiz are humans.
You are trying to insist that humans can be perfect like God, thus you cannot be right at all.

You concentrate on written text only and do not take into account the Hafiz preserving the Qur'an from the outset without any broken chain. You will be better off in your aim if you claim, and prove, that at a certain time during the last 1400 years, all the Hafiz had been killed crossing the red sea.
It is the same standard copy as the Abu Bakr standard copy in the memory of many Hafiz even at that time.

Written texts are the only objective basis to prove the point. That is why historians and researchers do not emphasize on the memory factors though valid and necessary but it is not the critical factor.

LOL!
All the Hafiz of the world had to meet in Casablanca to “standardize” their memory, as if they were all criminals to be questioned by the Qur’an hating policemen. Any more bright ideas?

That is stupid and not an intellectual point.
At some stage there is standardization where only one standard copy is used.
This is why Uthman burned all the variations.
The present Quran could have been standardized in the 12th Century or at least many hundreds years after the death of Muhammad.

But you are ignoring my point that this would be more of reason that could lead to variation in words of Hafiz reciting the Qur’an in different countries of the world. There only answer is that they have preserved the original without any variations.

Note the 6 earliest of partial copies has differences and there were no complete copies available for verification.
The earliest complete copy of the Quran is from 1201 AD.
All varied copies before 1200 could have been destroyed as to keep any full copy that is different from the standardize copy would be an embarrassments.
I believed the 6 earliest partial copies escaped being destroyed and were found only in later and recently.

You mean they must have met in Casablanca or in Singapore to cook a “standardized” memory?

Don't be childish and stupid.
At some point there would have been some process of convergence to a standardize copy which at the present is verified to 1201AD.
That is almost 600 years which is a long time for the older copies [which is an embarrassment] to be destroyed.

So they all decided to make their lie credible in the eyes of Qur’an haters but did not care if they went to hell for changing the word of Allah! It is a typical thought of unbelievers that the Qur’an has been cooked up “at some point in time” after Muhammad (pbuh).

There is no God in the first place and it is impossible for any human to prove God exists as real.
Therefore there was already a lie right from the beginning when some one or a group of people decide to 'cook up' a religion called Islam in the 7th, 8th or 9th century.
People with vested interest [political, existential crisis, etc.] will lie all the way to soothe their psychological issues.

That will only prove one thing; the earliest preserved full Qur’anic text. It will still not prove that the Hafiz all over the world had variations in reciting the Qur’an but decided to have a “standardized memory stick”.

I bet you can win the Nobel Prize if you can prove the memory of all humans can be perfect if there is nothing original to compare with.
Because humans' memory are never perfect-IN-GENERAL, there is a 99% probability that there will be variations between memorizers [Hafiz] from whatever is the original. This is especially so given the time, i.e. 7th Century, the location, Arabian Peninsula, the average intellectual capability of the Arabs then.

There is no way you can prove otherwise. There were Hafiz during the days of Abu Bakr and Umar as well as Uthman and Ali.

The onus is on you to prove [not me] and thus I will recommend you for a Nobel Prize.
Based on research it is well understood human memory is very limited and vulnerable to errors and omission regardless of how much precautions one takes, more so if there is no original to compare with.

That does not apply in this case where there were too many reciting the exact same way. In fact, “limitation of memory” is more a reason that there should have been variation in recitation from one remote place to another remote place even during the 1st Century Hijrah.

How many is too many?
If you look at the current situations given the more easy circumstances not many average people has super memory.
As I had mentioned all known variations were destroyed by Uthman.
Subsequent variations were destroyed to avoid embarrassments within 600 years till the first standardized copy in 1201AD [known].

This is where the control of Nafs comes in. The fact that despite not believing in the Qur’an, your 50+ reading of the Qur’an and continued discussion here in this forum is to me a clear proof that you are having doubt in your Nafs that you could be wrong. I don’t go to Atheist forums to satisfy my Self (Nafs) about God. I have learnt from the Qur’an to control my Nafs.

I don't think you have the depth on such knowledge.
I am wrong about what??

My hypothesis is this:
1. God cannot exists as real.
2. All Humans has an inherent existential dilemma and crisis [most].
3. To resolve the above crisis humans invented an illusory God.

I am very perturbed by the terrible evils and violence around the world that are committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who are influenced by the evil laden elements in the Quran. I am here in this forum to learn more about Islam and how Islam's set up influence and trigger the evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence.

No. It is the other way round; your weaker modulating capability to control that existential impulse thus your desperation has no other choice but to attacking the Qur’an because it mentions hell for unbelievers. Arguing here IS like forcing square pegs into round holes in desperation.

Note my point above on why I want to study the Quran in depth even though it is not palatable at all [some verses are very nauseating to non-believers].

It will not be changed unless all the Hafiz meet again in Casablanca to have it “standardized” in their memory..

Then there is no room for progress and the Quran is stuck with more than 55% of verses that contain evil laden elements that will trigger and inspired SOME [20%] of Muslims who are born with evil tendencies to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims and even Muslims. No wise humans will accept the above elements which are immutable till eternity.

If that is the best you can do, I am certain that you will never see variation either in the text or in memory of Hafiz. Never!

You sound as if you are an all knowing God which is blasphemous. You are merely a fallible human beings and slave of Allah and ALL humans do not have perfect memory and this vulnerability is displayed when there is no original to refer to.

Allah is Guardian of the Qur'an.
[15.9] Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its Guardian.

Where's Allah?
Prove Allah exists as real?

Note my hypothesis:

My hypothesis is this:
1. God cannot exists as real.
2. All Humans has an inherent existential dilemma and crisis [most].
3. To resolve the above crisis humans invented an illusory God.

Prove me wrong on the above.