The Validity of Prior Revelations of Muhammads' Islam? (quranic, famous, scientific)

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Khalif

There are Muslims who would say that 2:106 is about abrogation of Taurat and Injil (the old scriptures). They are just as wrong as those who say that any verse of the Qur'an has been abrogated by the Qur'an itself. I, a Muslim and believer, am not insisting that the Qur'an abrogates Taurat and Injil. Therefore, you are wrong in accusing me of doing so. I have already explained what I am saying about abrogation.

I based my inference from my reading of your earlier postings. If that is not the case then you are confirming your position here.

But you will face a problems with your point because then Allah will have to list all the verses that are abrogated in the Injil and Torah and leave whatever verses to be acceptable. Allah had not done that at all. Therefore what you propose is not practiced by Allah and was never intended by Allah.

[2.106] Whatever ayatin (messages, revelations, signs, verses) We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?

Each verse is a message, revelation and sign. One can assume that abrogation mentioned is of the verses of the Qur'an but that would be quite fanciful when it is taken into account that "cause to be forgotten" is part of the verse 2:106. No verse of the Qur'an has been "forgotten". Therefore, the abrogation mentioned is not about the verses of the Qur'an but of some verses of previous revelations that were for only certain group of people or have now been forgotten. Ignore any part of this verse and you will get it wrong.

If Each verse is a message, revelation and sign, then 2:106 is applicable to the Quran because the Quran contain messages, revelations and signs.
Note 2:106 stated "abrogate OR cause to be forgotten" and not "abrogate AND cause to be forgotten." There is a big difference between the two phrases.

'Cause to be forgotten' would apply to some [not all] cases where the point was erased from the memory of the scribes before it was written down. It can also mean the existing verse is forgotten [not active in memory] but it is still in the Quran. For example 5.43 dominates the mind of Muslims to the extend that 2:219 is forgotten [erased in mind not erased in texts].

No wonder this guy is ex-muslim! He hasn't got a clue as to what is stated in the Qur'an. He is looking for "possibilities" to suit his ignorance.

You are really ignorant on general knowledge. What he had done was extracting what is happening with various Muslims.

You yourself did the same thing above i.e.

Originally Posted by Khalif

There are Muslims who would say that 2:106 is about abrogation of Taurat and Injil (the old scriptures). They are just as wrong as those who say that any verse of the Qur'an has been abrogated by the Qur'an itself.

As such you should condemn yourself.
Btw, there are many times I have highlighted how you are ignorant of general knowledge, common knowledge, of reality, of human nature, etc. and is quick to jump to conclusion based on ignorance.

"Ayatin" does not mean only "verses" but also "messages", "revelations" and "signs". Each message, each verse, each revelation and each miracle is a "sign". Kitab is full revelation such as full Taurat, full Injil and full Qur'an. Combination of them all is also Kitab.

[17.12] And We have made the night and the day two signs (“ayatin”), then We have made the sign ("ayah") of the night to pass away and We have made the sign ("ayah") of the day manifest, so that you may seek grace from your Lord, and that you might know the numbering of years and the reckoning; and We have explained everything with distinctness.

[7:133] So We sent them the flood and the locusts and the vermin and the frogs and the blood--a succession of clear signs (ayatin). But they were arrogant and became guilty.

You missed the point and strike the straw man.
The author refer to those who claimed the abrogation refer to the whole Injil or Torah.
If that is the case, then Allah should have mentioned 'Kitab' which is generally use in such cases.
Therefore the abrogation is not referring to the Whole of the Injil and Torah.

The abrogation cannot refer to verses in the Torah or Injil because as I pointed above, then Allah must tell believers which specific verses are abrogated in the Injil and Torah. There is no evidence to support this claim abrogation is abrogating the specific verses in the Injil and Torah.

One needs sense to understand the Qur'an. Apply abrogation just to understand the Qur'an is senseless.

You have only read the Quran 6-7 times, it is unlikely you are able to understand the Quran and its nuances completely and perfectly as what Allah intended it to be.

This is utter ignorance about the verses of the Qur'an. The verse 2:219 clearly tells us that wine and gambling is GREAT SIN. Is there benefit is GREAT SIN? The SIN is greater than the profit made out of selling wine. There is no benefit if the it is GREAT SIN. The word in the Arabic Qur'an is "manafiAAu". It means monetary "profit" rather than health "benefit".

As usual you are putting words into Allah's mouth, i.e. changing the intended meaning of the verse which is shirk and blasphemy.

Again you are ignorant of general knowledge.
There is GREAT SIN when these two activities are done in the extreme, this is common sense with gambling and drinking alcohol.
It is also common knowledge there is a lot of health and other benefits if alcohol is taken in small amounts. Such is also applicable to gambling once is a while to exercise one's risk taking competence.

"Profit" literally is generally refer to monetary gain but not always.
Note the two meaning of 'profit'
Profit | Definition of Profit by Merriam-Webster

1. money that is made in a business, through investing, etc., after all the costs and expenses are paid : a financial gain
2. the advantage or benefit that is gained from doing something.

In the Quran, the term 'profit' is metaphorical to denote a net benefit.

Note in the Quran, Allah use 'commerce' to represent the business of going to Paradise or loss of going to Hell. The words [price, commerce] themselves denote monetary but surely this is meant to be metaphorical.
I have listed these verse earlier.

2:16These are they who purchase error at the price of guidance, so their commerce doth not prosper, neither are they guided.

6:10 O ye who believe! Shall I show you a commerce that will save you from a painful doom?

35:39 He it is Who hath made you regents in the earth; so he who disbelieveth, his disbelief be on his own head. Their disbelief increaseth for the disbelievers, in their Lord's sight, naught save abhorrence. Their disbelief increaseth for the disbelievers naught save loss.

Surely Allah did not intend going to Paradise to be a literally commercial affair.
My argument is Muhammad and his wife were traders and so Muhammad was very infused with the concept of Profit & Loss. Thus he used profit or loss as a metaphor in the Quran.

No abrogation of any of them. But of course if you can't understand them, you have no choice but apply whatever you fancy in your ignorance to understand them your way. I have studied them all and none abrogate any other.

As a believer and Muslims you MUST deny all whatever numerous errors and mistakes in the Quran otherwise your faith will not work. For you the stake to salvation is very high and thus you will do whatever to defend your belief even it is against the truth of reality.
You ought to be mindful your belief is based of faith thus not based on proofs nor justifiable reasons. In this case you will even accept nonsense as long as it does not shake your psychological stability and security.

You illustrate my point quite clearly that if you can't understand these verses and can't reconcile them, you see variation or contradiction in them. It is this ignorance through lack of understanding of these verses that forces some people to apply abrogation within the Qur'an.

Btw, it is the Quran that mentioned the term 'abrogation' not others. The right context is this 'abrogation' should apply to verses in the Quran itself.

I understand you will insist in whatever it takes [even nonsense and falsehoods] to ensure your faith is not shaken. This is why you are arguing there is no abrogation when the Quran itself assert it.
If it is fact that the verses in the Injil and Torah need to be abrogated there is no need to even mention it because Allah knew they were corrupted. Thus the condemnation of corruption is sufficient to exclude the whole Injil and Torah, thus no need for confusion by the term 'abrogation'.
In such a context, the term abrogation in the Quran refers to the Quran itself because there are many earlier verses in the Quran that require abrogation in order to ensure the whole of the Quran and Islam make as least some sense.

The concept of abrogation as applied to the Quran itself make sense because there is a long list of contradictions, changes, and oversights in the earlier recited and written-down verses.

Finally, and this is very important, the prophet never said that any verse of the Qur'an has been abrogated by another verse of the Qur'an. Had it been the case, he would have been the first person to say so. Further, there is no consensus as to how many verses of the Qur'an are abrogated. This is a clear cut indication that different people have just made up the abrogation within the Qur'an. The number varies because various people count the number of verses they can't reconcile and can't understand and regard them abrogated. That's why their number varies. My number is ZERO.

You are Quran-Only, why should you bother what the Prophet said.
If the Prophet said anything it cannot override Allah's words.

The fact is the Quran was authored by Muhammad or a group of people.
Because it was authored by fallible humans, in this case they are not competent, they had made mistakes and oversights.
Since the very earlier errors and oversights were committed to texts, the later found errors and oversights has to be corrected by abrogation in subsequent texts.

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Continuum

I based my inference from my reading of your earlier postings. If that is not the case then you are confirming your position here.

As usual, your inference (read comprehension) from written text is very poor.

But you will face a problems with your point because then Allah will have to list all the verses that are abrogated in the Injil and Torah and leave whatever verses to be acceptable. Allah had not done that at all. Therefore what you propose is not practiced by Allah and was never intended by Allah.

Firstly, you haven't a clue what was practiced by Allah and intended by Allah. So do not speak on behalf of Allah!

If you had understood the Qur'an, you would have known what has been abrogated FROM Taurat and Injil to the Qur'an. I had even given you an example (Sabbath) but you totally ignored it. Now you want which verses and probably the number of verses. Yet when the same question is asked about how many and which verses of the Qur'an are claimed to be abrogated, there is no consensus. The number varies according to their own ignorance about the Qur'an. If you insist that the abrogation mentioned in the Qur'an is about the verses of the Qur'an then you need to know which verses and exactly how many. If my question is not valid then your question also is not valid.

If Each verse is a message, revelation and sign, then 2:106 is applicable to the Quran because the Quran contain messages, revelations and signs.

And none of the message of the Qur'an is forgotten. Therefore, it does not apply to the Qur'an.

Note 2:106 stated "abrogate OR cause to be forgotten" and not "abrogate AND cause to be forgotten." There is a big difference between the two phrases.

It does not matter whether it is OR or AND, there is neither in the Qur'an. No verse of the Qur'an is nullified and no verse of the Qur'an has been forgotten. If no verse of the Qur'an is forgotten, as mentioned in the verse 2:106, the abrogation cannot apply to the Qur'an. If it had been to do with the Qur'an then there would have been no need for the "cause to be forgotten" mentioned in this verse. No wonder you can't understand the Qur'an!

'Cause to be forgotten' would apply to some [not all] cases where the point was erased from the memory of the scribes before it was written down.

Your mental gymnastics are working overtime here. It is a useless mental effort on your part. It is useless because the revelations/messages were written down and memorized at the same time immediately after they were revealed to Muhammad. If you insist on your own claim that it was some later scribes wrote the Qur'an and then began to correct their mistakes then they could easily have completely taken out their mistakes. They couldn't do it because they could not take out any word from Allah even if they wanted to because they knew there was no contradictions in the words of Allah.

]It can also mean the existing verse is forgotten [not active in memory] but it is still in the Quran. For example 5.43 dominates the mind of Muslims to the extend that 2:219 is forgotten [erased in mind not erased in texts].

What the hell is this! There is nothing forgotten about issue in 2:219 and the issue in 5:43 is completely different. No wonder you can't understand the Qur'an but make claims about it in ignorance! Do you understand what the verse 5:43 is saying?

You are really ignorant on general knowledge. What he had done was extracting what is happening with various Muslims.

One ignorant man talking about others but devoid of the truth of the matter.

Btw, there are many times I have highlighted how you are ignorant of general knowledge, common knowledge, of reality, of human nature, etc. and is quick to jump to conclusion based on ignorance.

Your assumed highlighting of my knowledge has always been in ignorance about my knowledge.

This is Islam discussion board and knowledge about Islam and the Qur'an. No point in you having general knowledge but no Qur'anic knowledge in this forum! Try yourself on Mastermind if you think you have brilliant general knowledge. Here, in this forum, Qur'anic knowledge is a must for any debate about the Qur'an.

You missed the point and strike the straw man.

Nonsense!

The author refer to those who claimed the abrogation refer to the whole Injil or Torah.
If that is the case, then Allah should have mentioned 'Kitab' which is generally use in such cases.
Therefore the abrogation is not referring to the Whole of the Injil and Torah.

I did not state that the abrogation refers to the whole of the Injil and the Torah; you must have assumed so.

BTW, "Kitab" ("Book") is not a written "Kitab" ("written book") either in our hands on earth or with Allah but it refers to revealed "knowledge" to us on earth and the knowledge of Allah (with Allah) that is Mother of all Knowledge (the Mother Book). You wouldn't know this because you haven't studied the Qur'an but only read it fast 50+ times which is not studying the Qur'an. The author was just as ignorant about it the reason he became an ex muslim. His knowledge is based on other peoples' knowledge rather than the knowledge about the Qur'an.

The abrogation cannot refer to verses in the Torah or Injil because as I pointed above, then Allah must tell believers which specific verses are abrogated in the Injil and Torah. There is no evidence to support this claim abrogation is abrogating the specific verses in the Injil and Torah.

You are exposing your ignorance about the Qur'an in this silly statement. If nothing was abrogated from the previous messages, Jews and Christians would have readily accepted the Message of the Qur'an. If the Qur'an hadn't abrogated Sabbath, the Jews would have accepted the Qur'an. If the Qur'an hadn't abrogated the Trinity, more Christians would have accepted the Qur'an. If the Qur'an hadn't annulled the practice of worshiping 360 gods, the Mushrikeen of Mecca would have accepted the revelation of the Qur'an. All verses about "Son of God" are abrogated. Sabbath was not ordained until Sinai revelation. It has been abrogated. Islam is tradition of Abraham. Abraham had followed Noah's tradition.

[37.79] Peace and salutation to Noah among the nations.
[37.80] Thus do We surely reward the doers of good.
[37.81] Surely he was of Our believing servants.
[37.82] Then We drowned the others
[37.83] And most surely Abraham followed his way.

Abraham obeyed so-called Noahide laws. These were increased for stiff-necked Israelites from Egypt. Allah increased them because He has power over all things. He also has power to decrease them because he has power over all things. If decreasing is labeled as change of mind then why wasn't it labeled change of mind when there was increase at Sinai? I suggest you begin to study the Qur'an rather than keep reading it only again and again and making the same old mistake again and again.

You have only read the Quran 6-7 times, it is unlikely you are able to understand the Quran and its nuances completely and perfectly as what Allah intended it to be.

Despite reading the Qur'an 50+ times, how come you do not understand the intent of Allah of sending all unbelievers to hell fire? If you do not understand this "intent" of Allah after reading the Qur'an, you do not understand any other intent of Allah.

As usual you are putting words into Allah's mouth, i.e. changing the intended meaning of the verse which is shirk and blasphemy.

LOL!

Since when did Allah give you a license to do just that?

Again you are ignorant of general knowledge.

And you are ignorant about Qur'anic knowledge.

There is GREAT SIN when these two activities are done in the extreme, this is common sense with gambling and drinking alcohol.
It is also common knowledge there is a lot of health and other benefits if alcohol is taken in small amounts. Such is also applicable to gambling once is a while to exercise one's risk taking competence.

Utter nonsense! No amount of alcohol is safe limit.

No safe alcohol limit, new guidelines to say
No safe alcohol limit, new guidelines to say | Society | The Guardian

"Profit" literally is generally refer to monetary gain but not always.
Note the two meaning of 'profit'
Profit | Definition of Profit by Merriam-Webster

1. money that is made in a business, through investing, etc., after all the costs and expenses are paid : a financial gain
2. the advantage or benefit that is gained from doing something.

In the Quran, the term 'profit' is metaphorical to denote a net benefit.

Note in the Quran, Allah use 'commerce' to represent the business of going to Paradise or loss of going to Hell. The words [price, commerce] themselves denote monetary but surely this is meant to be metaphorical.
I have listed these verse earlier.

2:16These are they who purchase error at the price of guidance, so their commerce doth not prosper, neither are they guided.

6:10 O ye who believe! Shall I show you a commerce that will save you from a painful doom?

35:39 He it is Who hath made you regents in the earth; so he who disbelieveth, his disbelief be on his own head. Their disbelief increaseth for the disbelievers, in their Lord's sight, naught save abhorrence. Their disbelief increaseth for the disbelievers naught save loss.

Surely Allah did not intend going to Paradise to be a literally commercial affair.

There is no "profit", even metaphorical, if the SIN IS GREATER. It means the metaphorical LOSS is GREATER THAN metaphorical PROFIT. Is metaphorical LOSS allowed in the Qur'an if it is GREATER than metaphorical PROFIT? Your ignorance about the Qur'an is increasing day by day. This is the result of your trying to qualify your lack of Qur'anic knowledge with nonsense.

My argument is Muhammad and his wife were traders and so Muhammad was very infused with the concept of Profit & Loss. Thus he used profit or loss as a metaphor in the Quran.

You can't make up your mind whether it was Muhammad who did it or a group of people after him tried to correct their own mistakes. The more you discuss this issue the more you will make mistakes to cover your previous mistakes. You need to keep in mind that it is not only drinking alcohol that is forbidden but selling alcohol is also forbidden. Therefore, LOSS is through GREAT SIN and PROFIT through selling alcohol is less than the SIN.

As a believer and Muslims you MUST deny all whatever numerous errors and mistakes in the Quran otherwise your faith will not work. For you the stake to salvation is very high and thus you will do whatever to defend your belief even it is against the truth of reality.
You ought to be mindful your belief is based of faith thus not based on proofs nor justifiable reasons. In this case you will even accept nonsense as long as it does not shake your psychological stability and security.

You do not know anything about this believer and Muslim. You are imagining too much about me. You are aware of reality but unaware of ultimate reality. Reality is material but the ultimate reality is spiritual. I am more interested in ultimate reality of the hereafter than your reality that will one day R.I.P (bite the dust so to speak).

Btw, it is the Quran that mentioned the term 'abrogation' not others. The right context is this 'abrogation' should apply to verses in the Quran itself.

The Qur'an mentions abrogation because of the People of previous revelation and idol worshipers were complaining about it and giving this reason for disbelieving the revelation of the Qur'an. The context of 2:106 begins with 2:105 and carries on for several verses. It cannot apply to the verses of the Qur'an. Not only some verses from the previous revelations have been forgotten but have been abrogated by SIMILAR or BETTER. Nothing has been completely annulled and never replaced with SIMILAR or BETTER.

I understand you will insist in whatever it takes [even nonsense and falsehoods] to ensure your faith is not shaken.

Are you foolishly trying to shake my faith? You haven't hope in the world.

This is why you are arguing there is no abrogation when the Quran itself assert it.

Why are you making such foolish and untrue claims about me? I never insisted that there is no abrogation. As usual, you are unable to understand a written text. Your comprehension of a written text is very poor. No wonder you can't comprehend the written text of the Qur'an!

If it is fact that the verses in the Injil and Torah need to be abrogated there is no need to even mention it because Allah knew they were corrupted.

Once more you are making claims about Allah in your ignorance! How do you know that Allah knew they were corrupted?

[62.5] The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the messages of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Allah knew that they did not OBSERVE it, rather than corrupted it.

[2.41] And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My messages; and Me, Me alone should you fear.

The message of the Qur'an verified what was with them of the Taurat at the time 1400 years ago. It did not say that what was with them was corrupted. Even 5:34 confirms my point.

[3.50] And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden t you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.

Even the message of the Injil not only verifies the Taurat but allows to Jews PART OF what was forbidden to them in the Taurat. Therefore, part abrogation from previous revelation to the next revelation is ongoing rather than never happened before the Qur'an.

And this is quite telling:

[3.93] All food was lawful to the children of Israel except that which Israel had forbidden to himself, before the Taurat was revealed. Say: Bring then the Taurat and read it, if you are truthful.

Why would Allah challenge the Jews about bringing the Taurat and reading it if it was corrupted by then?

Thus the condemnation of corruption is sufficient to exclude the whole Injil and Torah, thus no need for confusion by the term 'abrogation'.

As explained above, using the verses of the Qur'an, abrogation is only PART OF what was forbidden in Taurat at Sinai to the Israelites from Egypt and allowed through the Injil and the Qur'an, re-establishing the deen of Abraham and Noah for all. The whole of the Taurat or Injil has never been abrogated or annulled in the Qur'an. In fact, if the Jews and Christian do not want to believe the Qur'an, they must observe the Taurat and Injil respectively. They will still be judged on observing the Taurat and Injil. If they want to keep the yoke of no work for a full day then it is their choice. Allah has tried to lighten their burden but if they want to keep the burden, fine!

In such a context, the term abrogation in the Quran refers to the Quran itself because there are many earlier verses in the Quran that require abrogation in order to ensure the whole of the Quran and Islam make as least some sense.

It makes perfect sense to me. It will never make any sense to those who are unable to understand it. Dumb and deaf, whether muslims or non-Muslims, will not understand the Qur'an. They will try to corrupt it to suit their faulty comprehension about it. The Qur'an is never going to be corrupted.

The concept of abrogation as applied to the Quran itself make sense because there is a long list of contradictions, changes, and oversights in the earlier recited and written-down verses.

None is true but the claims only of ignorant people because they are unable to understand the Qur'an.

You are Quran-Only, why should you bother what the Prophet said.
If the Prophet said anything it cannot override Allah's words.

That is a quite foolish remark. Did Allah drop His words directly on Muslims in Makkah and Madina or revealed through the prophet Muhammad, who then recited to others? If the words of Allah came to prophet Muhammad first and he did not say a verse of the Qur'an has been abrogated and made annulled then abrogation was never about any verse of the Qur'an.

The fact is the Quran was authored by Muhammad or a group of people.

The fact is you do not even know the fact but still call it fact.

Because it was authored by fallible humans, in this case they are not competent, they had made mistakes and oversights.

Because they are fallible humans, they make mistakes in understanding the Qur'an by reading it too fast and not pondering over its ayat.

Since the very earlier errors and oversights were committed to texts, the later found errors and oversights has to be corrected by abrogation in subsequent texts.

There are no error in the Qur'an. Errors are only in the minds of those can't understand it.

[mahasn sawresho]

Originally Posted by Khalif

No verse of the Qur'an has been abrogated. Each verse still applies or else it won't be in the Qur'an today.

- abrogated types in the Qur'an:
Type If abrogated recitation and government together, so that nullifies the work-governing fixed text, as well as delete the text from the Koran
What was revealed the Qur'an: (ten feedings are denied information, Venschen with five, and he died Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him and they read in the Koran)
Type2-abrogated judgment only the survival of the recitation, it nullifies any hard work rule text, with the survival of the text which is recited from the Koran and praying to read out and proves the covers of the Koran.
An example of this type: the verse: {And you who die and Ivron pairs testament to their spouses chattel to squint is output} [Al-Baqarah: 240]. This verse is installed in the Koran, and recited frequent as the Koran praying to be read and valid by prayer, with that fixed by the government, which must be stalking hula full to those who died by her husband, engrossed, saying the Almighty: {And you who die and Ivron pairs regards their four months and ten days} [Al-Baqarah: 234].
Has necessitated the deceased by her husband unaccustomed to four months and ten days, has proved to be the last to disembark from the first, it indicates that the first rule of a abrogated
though remained recited.
Type3Copies of recitation with the survival of governance, any text that hard work by the rule remains constant and continuous, but strips the text of the Koran to prove what Almthelo provisions, Kaltabd read out and the health of its prayer and so on, do not hold it in the Koran.
An example of this type: What Bukhari, Muslim and others from the Omar bin al-Khattab and corrected son Hibbaan, from Abu ibn Ka'b, God bless them, they said: He was as down from the Koran (Sheikh Sheikha if committed zina Varjmoheme at all a punishment from Allah, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.)
What is meant by Sheikh Sheikha and divorced men and women, this provision, which is the stoning of divorced men and women, if adultery with a fixed and tight and in place. Note that this verse was left to exist between the covers of the Koran and on the tongues of readers, it is not permissible to pray, worship and be read.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Khalif

As usual, your inference (read comprehension) from written text is very poor.

It is not a question of miscomprehension in this case. It is a pure case of oversight of certain parts of the sentence. It happens and I have not committed many of these.
As for miscomprehension of my points, you have committed many and I have highlighted this many times.

Firstly, you haven't a clue what was practiced by Allah and intended by Allah. So do not speak on behalf of Allah!

Funny. The point is it is impossible for a God to exists and as such the Quran was authored by human[s]. It is not difficult to try to interpret what was intended by the human[s] who authored the Quran.

If you had understood the Qur'an, you would have known what has been abrogated FROM Taurat and Injil to the Qur'an. I had even given you an example (Sabbath) but you totally ignored it. Now you want which verses and probably the number of verses. Yet when the same question is asked about how many and which verses of the Qur'an are claimed to be abrogated, there is no consensus. The number varies according to their own ignorance about the Qur'an. If you insist that the abrogation mentioned in the Qur'an is about the verses of the Qur'an then you need to know which verses and exactly how many. If my question is not valid then your question also is not valid.

If there is a God who abrogated the verses in the Torah and Injil, then it is only right that Allah provided the list of which verse is abrogated and which is not abrogated to avoid confusions.
If what you claim is true, then it involves different books. In addition the present books [Torah and Injil] Allah claimed they are corrupted. As such there is no way one can determine precisely which verses are abrogated.

Abrogation in the Quran is different because we are talking of abrogation within the same present book. There are tons of evidence on how the verses in the Quran are abrogated.
Btw the majority of Muslims believe in the concept of abrogation [as in accordance to what the Quran intended] except you and a few Muslims. I am not saying majority is always right but the evidence in this case is very obvious the concept of abrogation applies to verses in the Quran.

And none of the message of the Qur'an is forgotten. Therefore, it does not apply to the Qur'an.

How do you know?

It does not matter whether it is OR or AND, there is neither in the Qur'an.
No verse of the Qur'an is nullified and no verse of the Qur'an has been forgotten. If no verse of the Qur'an is forgotten, as mentioned in the verse 2:106, the abrogation cannot apply to the Qur'an. If it had been to do with the Qur'an then there would have been no need for the "cause to be forgotten" mentioned in this verse. No wonder you can't understand the Qur'an!

You are getting deceptive by ignoring "OR" in 2:106.

2:106 [Part] Such of Our revelations as We abrogate OR cause to be forgotten, we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof.

Note the "OR" in the above sentence.
In the above case there are two circumstances, if 'forgotten' is not significant, then "abrogate" is still significant and applicable.
It is obvious 5:93 is a better verse than 2:219 in terms of 'alcohol' from the Quran's point of view.

Your mental gymnastics are working overtime here. It is a useless mental effort on your part. It is useless because the revelations/messages were written down and memorized at the same time immediately after they were revealed to Muhammad. If you insist on your own claim that it was some later scribes wrote the Qur'an and then began to correct their mistakes then they could easily have completely taken out their mistakes. They couldn't do it because they could not take out any word from Allah even if they wanted to because they knew there was no contradictions in the words of Allah.

How do you know?
You are wrong!
It is not written down and memorized!!! rather
It is memorized and written down long after it was heard and in many cases many years after.
An all-powerful Allah could easily caused what was memorized to be forgotten and they will not even aware of it because Allah do not speak to them directly.

What the hell is this! There is nothing forgotten about issue in 2:219 and the issue in 5:43 is completely different. No wonder you can't understand the Qur'an but make claims about it in ignorance! Do you understand what the verse 5:43 is saying?

5:43 was my mistake. I meant 5:90. For those who do not read the Quran regularly, they are likely to forget about the point on alcohol as 5:90 dominate the thinking which is the case at present with most Muslims who take it to the extreme on anything involving alcohol even it can save their life.

One ignorant man talking about others but devoid of the truth of the matter.

Prove your point? What I meant was he was doing a proper thing in abstracting from what is really going on in the Muslim world on the various views relating to abrogation.

Your assumed highlighting of my knowledge has always been in ignorance about my knowledge.

It is not my assumption but the truth that you are ignorant of the matter discussed. This can be easily proven and verified with evidence.

This is Islam discussion board and knowledge about Islam and the Qur'an. No point in you having general knowledge but no Qur'anic knowledge in this forum! Try yourself on Mastermind if you think you have brilliant general knowledge. Here, in this forum, Qur'anic knowledge is a must for any debate about the Qur'an.

This is really dumb.
A Muslim must be a Muslim in accordance to the Quran but at the same time a Muslim must also be a human being. To be a human being a Muslim must be informed of reality to the extent of at least general knowledge. If a Muslim do not accept being a full human being, then s/he is a zombie and many Muslims are zombies.

Nonsense!

Prove your point? Giving individual words with exclamation mark do not reflect on your intelligence.

I did not state that the abrogation refers to the whole of the Injil and the Torah; you must have assumed so.

Note my first response above.

BTW, "Kitab" ("Book") is not a written "Kitab" ("written book") either in our hands on earth or with Allah but it refers to revealed "knowledge" to us on earth and the knowledge of Allah (with Allah) that is Mother of all Knowledge (the Mother Book). You wouldn't know this because you haven't studied the Qur'an but only read it fast 50+ times which is not studying the Qur'an. The author was just as ignorant about it the reason he became an ex muslim. His knowledge is based on other peoples' knowledge rather than the knowledge about the Qur'an.

How much I know of the Quran is evidenced from what I have posted and the threads I raised so far.
It is common knowledge "kitab" refer to the whole set of compiled verses rather than individual verses, set of verses or chapters.

You are exposing your ignorance about the Qur'an in this silly statement. If nothing was abrogated from the previous messages, Jews and Christians would have readily accepted the Message of the Qur'an. If the Qur'an hadn't abrogated Sabbath, the Jews would have accepted the Qur'an. If the Qur'an hadn't abrogated the Trinity, more Christians would have accepted the Qur'an. If the Qur'an hadn't annulled the practice of worshiping 360 gods, the Mushrikeen of Mecca would have accepted the revelation of the Qur'an. All verses about "Son of God" are abrogated. Sabbath was not ordained until Sinai revelation. It has been abrogated. Islam is tradition of Abraham. Abraham had followed Noah's tradition.

[37.79] Peace and salutation to Noah among the nations.
[37.80] Thus do We surely reward the doers of good.
[37.81] Surely he was of Our believing servants.
[37.82] Then We drowned the others
[37.83] And most surely Abraham followed his way.

Abraham obeyed so-called Noahide laws. These were increased for stiff-necked Israelites from Egypt. Allah increased them because He has power over all things. He also has power to decrease them because he has power over all things. If decreasing is labeled as change of mind then why wasn't it labeled change of mind when there was increase at Sinai? I suggest you begin to study the Qur'an rather than keep reading it only again and again and making the same old mistake again and again.

Me ignorant on this matter re the Quran??
You should say that ignorance to yourself.

Allah claimed the Jews and Christians changed the original words of Allah in their respective Quran-of-old.
Allah also assert SPECIFICALLY the Quran recited by Muhammad is the final copy and thus override whatever texts the Jews and Christians had on hand then. Since this is a specific exercise of replacement as the final words of Allah, there is no need for Allah to mention 'abrogation' for this event.
Therefore the concept of abrogation was a general [loose] term that is applicable to the verses within the Quran.

Despite reading the Qur'an 50+ times, how come you do not understand the intent of Allah of sending all unbelievers to hell fire? If you do not understand this "intent" of Allah after reading the Qur'an, you do not understand any other intent of Allah.

I understand Allah intention of sending all non-Muslims to hell.
The basic intention of Allah in relation to the concept of Hell is to threaten all humans that if they don't believe and worship Allah, then they will suffer the most terrible torture and pains.

Since God cannot exists, from the perspective of reality, the authors who introduced the concept of Hell did it for the purpose of controlling the gullible masses.

LOL!
Since when did Allah give you a license to do just that?

Based on what I understand of Allah's words in the Quran, it is easy to arrive at that inference that you are putting words into Allah's mouth, thus shirk.

And you are ignorant about Qur'anic knowledge.

If you do not accept general knowledge which should be Allah's doing, then you are a zombie.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Khalif

Utter nonsense! No amount of alcohol is safe limit.

No safe alcohol limit, new guidelines to say
No safe alcohol limit, new guidelines to say | Society | The Guardian

Yet the same Dame Sally Davies advised the following;

Chief Medical Officer Professor Dame Sally Davies said: "Drinking any level of alcohol regularly carries a health risk for anyone, but if men and women limit their intake to no more than 14 units a week it keeps the risk of illness like cancer and liver disease low."
There is no 'safe' limit for alcohol consumption, medical chiefs warn

Again you are ignorant of general knowledge and take the point too the extreme based on your ignorance. Note this point;

Liverpool University's Professor Matt Field said the advice will help shape people's choices and added that risk is involved in many of our daily activities. "Any amount of alcohol consumption carries some risk," the Professor of Addiction said.

"However, it is important to bear in mind that most activities that people undertake on a daily basis - e.g. driving to work - carry some risk, and people need to make informed choices about the level of risk that they are prepared to accept."

There is no 'safe' limit for alcohol consumption, medical chiefs warn

In other words, the "No safe alcohol limit" is no different from "No Air Travel is 100% Safe" and applicable to anything that has some degree of risks. So in line with your argument are you insisting there is no benefits to air travel and no one should travel by air.

The point is despite the risks, there are benefits of various kinds with small consumption of alcohol.
This what the Quran meant in 2:219, i.e. there is 'profit' i.e. net benefits with the consumption of alcohol despite drinking it being a GREAT SIN when taken to the extreme.

There is no "profit", even metaphorical, if the SIN IS GREATER. It means the metaphorical LOSS is GREATER THAN metaphorical PROFIT. Is metaphorical LOSS allowed in the Qur'an if it is GREATER than metaphorical PROFIT? Your ignorance about the Qur'an is increasing day by day. This is the result of your trying to qualify your lack of Qur'anic knowledge with nonsense.

There is a metaphorical "profit" if one do not drink alcohol to the extreme. There are many people who merely take a small amount of wine and other medicinal alcoholic in a day or before they sleep.
Note the health benefits of red wines;
10 Health Benefits of Red Wine | Eat This!
This is supported by the Quran where wine is available in Paradise.

It is only a metaphorical LOSS if one drink to the extreme, get drunk every hour and every day to the extent of brain, organs and body damages that end up with diseases.

You can't make up your mind whether it was Muhammad who did it or a group of people after him tried to correct their own mistakes. The more you discuss this issue the more you will make mistakes to cover your previous mistakes. You need to keep in mind that it is not only drinking alcohol that is forbidden but selling alcohol is also forbidden. Therefore, LOSS is through GREAT SIN and PROFIT through selling alcohol is less than the SIN.

Whether it is written by Muhammad or a group of people, the critical point here is the Quran is not authored by a God.
"Selling" you are putting words into Allah's mouth as the Quran did not mentioned it specifically. At the worse there is nothing wrong with selling alcohol to non-Muslims if that is necessary for the Muslim to earn money to feed his family.

You do not know anything about this believer and Muslim. You are imagining too much about me. You are aware of reality but unaware of ultimate reality. Reality is material but the ultimate reality is spiritual. I am more interested in ultimate reality of the hereafter than your reality that will one day R.I.P (bite the dust so to speak).

Prove there is an ultimate reality and the hereafter.
What you are messing up with is your psychology of mortality. Where one is taught to deal with such a terrible but natural unavoidable psychological effect, such as in the Eastern Religions, there is no need to speculate in a God which partly condoned evils and violence.

The Qur'an mentions abrogation because of the People of previous revelation and idol worshipers were complaining about it and giving this reason for disbelieving the revelation of the Qur'an. The context of 2:106 begins with 2:105 and carries on for several verses. It cannot apply to the verses of the Qur'an. Not only some verses from the previous revelations have been forgotten but have been abrogated by SIMILAR or BETTER. Nothing has been completely annulled and never replaced with SIMILAR or BETTER.

2:105 may start the point but Allah took the opportunity to highlight this general principle in 2:106. Such introduction of various principles where necessary and suddenly is common within the Quran because there is no continuous common theme in the Quran.

Are you foolishly trying to shake my faith? You haven't hope in the world.

I am stating verifiable facts as it is objectively at all times. If your faith is shaken it has nothing to do with me.

Why are you making such foolish and untrue claims about me? I never insisted that there is no abrogation. As usual, you are unable to understand a written text. Your comprehension of a written text is very poor. No wonder you can't comprehend the written text of the Qur'an!

You are denying there is no abrogation of the texts and verses within the Quran, are you not?

Once more you are making claims about Allah in your ignorance! How do you know that Allah knew they were corrupted?

[62.5] The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the messages of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Allah knew that they did not OBSERVE it, rather than corrupted it.

[2.41] And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My messages; and Me, Me alone should you fear.

The message of the Qur'an verified what was with them of the Taurat at the time 1400 years ago. It did not say that what was with them was corrupted. Even 5:34 confirms my point.

[3.50] And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden t you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.

Even the message of the Injil not only verifies the Taurat but allows to Jews PART OF what was forbidden to them in the Taurat. Therefore, part abrogation from previous revelation to the next revelation is ongoing rather than never happened before the Qur'an.

And this is quite telling:

[3.93] All food was lawful to the children of Israel except that which Israel had forbidden to himself, before the Taurat was revealed. Say: Bring then the Taurat and read it, if you are truthful.

Why would Allah challenge the Jews about bringing the Taurat and reading it if it was corrupted by then?

We have argued this point and I have raised an OP to discuss why and how the Torah and Injil are corrupted as claimed by the Quran.
//www.city-data.com/forum/islam...corrupted.html

As explained above, using the verses of the Qur'an, abrogation is only PART OF what was forbidden in Taurat at Sinai to the Israelites from Egypt and allowed through the Injil and the Qur'an, re-establishing the deen of Abraham and Noah for all. The whole of the Taurat or Injil has never been abrogated or annulled in the Qur'an. In fact, if the Jews and Christian do not want to believe the Qur'an, they must observe the Taurat and Injil respectively. They will still be judged on observing the Taurat and Injil. If they want to keep the yoke of no work for a full day then it is their choice. Allah has tried to lighten their burden but if they want to keep the burden, fine!

I have argued there is no need to relate abrogation to the Torah and Injil.
This is because Allah had stated SPECIFICALLY they were replaced with the Quran and the final revelations since they were corrupted.

It makes perfect sense to me. It will never make any sense to those who are unable to understand it. Dumb and deaf, whether muslims or non-Muslims, will not understand the Qur'an. They will try to corrupt it to suit their faulty comprehension about it. The Qur'an is never going to be corrupted.

The fact is as a Muslim and believer you have no choice but MUST twist whatever [right, wrong, false, lie, illusory] to what you are believing. Otherwise your faith will not work. SOME [not you] Muslims and believers will to the extend of killing others if they can not get others to accept their beliefs.

Note what I have been presenting and arguing is based on facts and objective views since I have no vested in the Quran's message.

None is true but the claims only of ignorant people because they are unable to understand the Qur'an.

Note my point above why you MUST be bias and ignorant like an ostrich.

That is a quite foolish remark. Did Allah drop His words directly on Muslims in Makkah and Madina or revealed through the prophet Muhammad, who then recited to others? If the words of Allah came to prophet Muhammad first and he did not say a verse of the Qur'an has been abrogated and made annulled then abrogation was never about any verse of the Qur'an.

Note Muhammad was supposed to be a warner, reminderer, conveyor, like a 'tape recorder' or 'parrot.' As such there is no need for Allah to tell him Allah is abrogating a certain verse to confuse him. Muhammad's responsibilities was to regurgitate what was recited to him by Gabriel and do nothing else.

Of course Muhammad can later reflect on what he had recited later [days, months or years] but that has nothing to do with the process of Allah's conveying the message.

The fact is you do not even know the fact but still call it fact.

It is a very obvious inferred fact because no one has ever proven God exists as real. The fact is also you admit you cannot prove God exists but merely accept God's existence based on faith, i.e. beliefs WITHOUT proofs nor justifiable reasons.

Because they are fallible humans, they make mistakes in understanding the Qur'an by reading it too fast and not pondering over its ayat.

You are not following my point. It seem you are agreeing the Quran was authored by human[s] and not God. Read my point again.

There are no error in the Qur'an. Errors are only in the minds of those can't understand it.

"errors in Quran" in Google highlighted 464,000 hits.
I know this has to be argued and presented properly but if the Quran is really perfect without errors there will not be something like 464,000 hits.
I will not go into the details of this in this post and leave you to reflect on the so many hits I mentioned.

[mahasn sawresho]

Originally Posted by Continuum

The fact is the Quran was authored by Muhammad or a group of people.
Because it was authored by fallible humans, in this case they are not competent, they had made mistakes and oversights.
Since the very earlier errors and oversights were committed to texts, the later found errors and oversights has to be corrected by abrogation in subsequent texts.

Will they not ponder the Qur'an Had it been from other than God they would have found therein much discrepancy
We read these differences
----------------------------------------
And if it comes to them a matter of security or fear him Omaawa
The interpretation of this verse
On the right: "It happened a speech he sees that it is false is one of the liars." It is noteworthy here is an interview with Omar bin al-Khattab agreed, when heard that the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him divorced wives, came and from his home even entered the mosque and found the people say, it did not wait to ask permission to the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him Fastvhmh: launched your wives? He said: "No". I said: Allah is the greatest. He said the modern championship.

When Muslim: I said: Otalegthn? He said: "No," I got up on the door of the mosque Vnadett the top of my voice: I have not called the Messenger of Allah bless him and his wives. And this verse was revealed: (And if it comes to them a matter of security or fear Omaawa him if Rdoh to the Prophet and to the rulers of them knowing who Istnbtonh them) I figured I devised this matter.

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Continuum

Whether it is written by Muhammad or a group of people, the critical point here is the Quran is not authored by a God.

It is from God. A man could not have authored it. Would you care to author similar book? Claim it is from God, and see how far you get with it.

If you, an educated (assumed) man can't do it, Muhammad an uneducated man couldn't have done it.

"Selling" you are putting words into Allah's mouth as the Quran did not mentioned it specifically.

Nor did the Qur'an mention health or spiritual benefit!

At the worse there is nothing wrong with selling alcohol to non-Muslims if that is necessary for the Muslim to earn money to feed his family.

There is nothing wrong in drinking alcohol for Muslims if this is the only liquid available to save their life. But that is another issue. That would be one's need rather than above his need.

Prove there is an ultimate reality and the hereafter.

You have to die first to see the ultimate reality. You will see the proof after your death as the hereafter is not within your reality.

What you are messing up with is your psychology of mortality. Where one is taught to deal with such a terrible but natural unavoidable psychological effect, such as in the Eastern Religions, there is no need to speculate in a God which partly condoned evils and violence.

God condones justice, not evil or else I would be doing evil and violence.

2:105 may start the point but Allah took the opportunity to highlight this general principle in 2:106. Such introduction of various principles where necessary and suddenly is common within the Quran because there is no continuous common theme in the Quran.

Just because you can't understand the Qur'an? Why should the Qur'an comply with your wishes?

I am stating verifiable facts as it is objectively at all times. If your faith is shaken it has nothing to do with me.

Such crap from you won't shake my faith. Verifiable facts are reality, ultimate reality is not verifiable whilst you are stuck in reality of your world, and think that nothing else exists outside your world.

You are denying there is no abrogation of the texts and verses within the Quran, are you not?

I am not denying that there is no abrogation of the text and verses within the Qur'an but I am denying that there is abrogation within the verses of the Qur'an. It seems as if you are unable to understand what I am stating (or even what you are asking).

We have argued this point and I have raised an OP to discuss why and how the Torah and Injil are corrupted as claimed by the Quran.
//www.city-data.com/forum/islam...corrupted.html

I have argued there is no need to relate abrogation to the Torah and Injil.
This is because Allah had stated SPECIFICALLY they were replaced with the Quran and the final revelations since they were corrupted.

Your claim about the Qur'an is completely false. Quote the verse of the Qur'an in which it is stated that the Torah and Injil have been abrogated with the Qur'an since they were corrupted!

The fact is as a Muslim and believer you have no choice but MUST twist whatever [right, wrong, false, lie, illusory] to what you are believing. Otherwise your faith will not work. SOME [not you] Muslims and believers will to the extend of killing others if they can not get others to accept their beliefs.

My faith in God is working perfectly despite your "proof" after "proof" that there is no God. I also do not complain about torture and being roasted in hell like others without faith. I am not worried about the ultimate reality or hate from Allah (SWT) because I am not guilty of any crime or evil act. My faith will be shaken only if I were doing evil acts. No unbeliever is going to shake my faith. Any such attempt is seen by me as insecurity on the part of such unbeliever.

Note what I have been presenting and arguing is based on facts and objective views since I have no vested in the Quran's message.

You are presenting and arguing against the Qur'an simply because you are, deep down, insecure. Otherwise you wouldn't care less what I believe and what I do not believe. My eeman shouldn't affect you at all as its value is only with me.

Note my point above why you MUST be bias and ignorant like an ostrich.

When it comes to the Qur'an, I know that the dumb and deaf will not understand the Qur'an until the ultimate reality hits them.

Note Muhammad was supposed to be a warner, reminderer, conveyor, like a 'tape recorder' or 'parrot.' As such there is no need for Allah to tell him Allah is abrogating a certain verse to confuse him. Muhammad's responsibilities was to regurgitate what was recited to him by Gabriel and do nothing else.

Then there is no need for any other person to claim otherwise! If Muhammad didn't do it then no other person is in a position to do it.

Of course Muhammad can later reflect on what he had recited later [days, months or years] but that has nothing to do with the process of Allah's conveying the message.

Headless chickens can't think that he could easily have removed or destroyed the verses after "reflection" days, months or years later. The fact of the matter is that you are trying to grab a straw that isn't even there.

It is a very obvious inferred fact because no one has ever proven God exists as real. The fact is also you admit you cannot prove God exists but merely accept God's existence based on faith, i.e. beliefs WITHOUT proofs nor justifiable reasons.

I have my reasons about existence of God just as you have your reason about God. My belief about God is at least on good faith, your belief is not even on good faith but based on insecurity and fear of hell as an unbeliever. If you were so secure in your reality, you wouldn't care less arguing about existence of God in this Islam forum.

You are not following my point. It seem you are agreeing the Quran was authored by human[s] and not God. Read my point again.

That means you did not understand what I had stated; as usual.

"errors in Quran" in Google highlighted 464,000 hits.
I know this has to be argued and presented properly but if the Quran is really perfect without errors there will not be something like 464,000 hits.
I will not go into the details of this in this post and leave you to reflect on the so many hits I mentioned.

I have been dismissing that kind of crap for 16 years on the 'net'. I reflect on their ignorance about the Qur'an. Every "error" is error of the unbeliever in understanding the Qur'an. It is because of the Qur'an that I am still a Muslim. Had it been due to nice, lovely and flowery language, I would have been Christian and a crusader. Alhamdulillah (The praise is for Allah).

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Khalif

It is from God. A man could not have authored it. Would you care to author similar book? Claim it is from God, and see how far you get with it.

First you cannot prove God exists, so how can the Quran be authored by a God.

Your challenge to write another book is a stupid challenge.
I [& many] can easily write another low religious quality like the Quran, but why should I waste my time of a low quality book.
The fact is there are millions of books out there that are better than the Quran in terms of topics [including religious and spirituality], contents and usefulness to humanity.

If you, an educated (assumed) man can't do it, Muhammad an uneducated man couldn't have done it.

Why should I waste my time on such a low quality book.
The point is humans had written millions of books which are better than the Quran.
This meant the Quran cannot be authored by a God, because if it is authored by a God, it cannot be of such low quality.

I refer you to just this one book, i.e. Avatamsaka Sutra which is written by humans.
//www.city-data.com/forum/buddh...aka-sutra.html
It is hundreds of times better than the Quran in terms of spirituality.

Nor did the Qur'an mention health or spiritual benefit!

2:219 refer to 'benefits' in general. In most [almost all] cases the benefits is related to one's credit in going to Paradise.

You have to die first to see the ultimate reality. You will see the proof after your death as the hereafter is not within your reality.

What kind of proof is that?
I can make any claim I like [e.g. you will definitely go to hell regardless of what you belief] and insist you can only know when you are dead. How are you going to prove me wrong by your own standard.
This is a very stupid argument.

God condones justice, not evil or else I would be doing evil and violence.

Note Buddhism and Jainism which do no believe in any ultimate God promote a pacifist ideology at its fundamental level and there are no Buddhists and Jains shouting Buddha-u-Akbar and quoting Buddhist texts and killing non-believers.
On the other hand there are thousands of Jihadists and evil Muslims shouting Allahu Akbar and quoting texts from the Quran to kill justify their killing of non-Muslims.
Your not doing evil and violence is because you are more of a practicing good human rather than a better Muslim.

Just because you can't understand the Qur'an? Why should the Qur'an comply with your wishes?

I did not expect the Quran to comply with my wishes. I am just interpreting what the Quran intended to convey.

Such crap from you won't shake my faith. Verifiable facts are reality, ultimate reality is not verifiable whilst you are stuck in reality of your world, and think that nothing else exists outside your world.

I am not out to shake your faith. I am merely stating facts objectively.
If your ultimate reality is not verifiable, then anything goes. You can even insist square-circles exist without the need to verify it.
The point is whatever is verifiable must be possible even if it is not available for verification at present. I can speculate human-liked aliens exist somewhere in the universe billions of light years from Earth. This speculation though not achievable at present is tenable because we are dealing with possible elements.

The problem with ultimate reality in your sense, i.e. God [whether near or far] is an impossible proposition. You can believe in a God via faith but it is impossible for God to exists as real.

I am not denying that there is no abrogation of the text and verses within the Qur'an but I am denying that there is abrogation within the verses of the Qur'an. It seems as if you are unable to understand what I am stating (or even what you are asking).

What is the problem with asking to reconfirm your position.

Your claim about the Qur'an is completely false. Quote the verse of the Qur'an in which it is stated that the Torah and Injil have been abrogated with the Qur'an since they were corrupted!

Note I never claimed the Quran used the term 'abrogation' to refer to the overriding of the Injil and Torah.
We have discussed and note the OP I raised to support why the Quran claim the Injil and Torah are corrupted.

My faith in God is working perfectly despite your "proof" after "proof" that there is no God. I also do not complain about torture and being roasted in hell like others without faith. I am not worried about the ultimate reality or hate from Allah (SWT) because I am not guilty of any crime or evil act. My faith will be shaken only if I were doing evil acts. No unbeliever is going to shake my faith. Any such attempt is seen by me as insecurity on the part of such unbeliever.

Btw I am not concern with specifically shaking your faith at all.
My project is to establish the hypothesis on how the root causes of all the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME [not you] Muslims who are born naturally with strong proclivities to evils and violence are traceable to the evil laden verses in the Quran.

You are presenting and arguing against the Qur'an simply because you are, deep down, insecure. Otherwise you wouldn't care less what I believe and what I do not believe. My eeman shouldn't affect you at all as its value is only with me.

As stated above and implied elsewhere I actually don't give a damn about your belief in Islam on a personal basis. That is up to your own discretion.
My discussion of Islam is with any one in this forum not just you, therefore it is not personal but general in line with my hypothesis. What I am glad with discussing with you is your Quran-Only belief which I believe is a higher grade of Muslim_ness or eeman.

When it comes to the Qur'an, I know that the dumb and deaf will not understand the Qur'an until the ultimate reality hits them.

I know what you meant because I understand even the most notable atheist turned to be a deist in later life when the faculties has weakened.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...8082828AAzSrlR

Maybe it will happen to some but not me and some others who have the spiritual maturity to override the basis threat issued in the Quran.
I have done extensive research on this issue.
This point is one reason why some said, there are no atheists in fox holes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_...ts_in_foxholes
This happens only to some people not all.

Headless chickens can't think that he could easily have removed or destroyed the verses after "reflection" days, months or years later. The fact of the matter is that you are trying to grab a straw that isn't even there.

Note Muhammad is supposedly under the total control of Allah. So there is no way Muhammad could easily have removed or destroyed the verses later.

I have my reasons about existence of God just as you have your reason about God. My belief about God is at least on good faith, your belief is not even on good faith but based on insecurity and fear of hell as an unbeliever. If you were so secure in your reality, you wouldn't care less arguing about existence of God in this Islam forum.

I am indifferent to the concept of God. However I am equipped to explain why it is impossible for God to exists and why theists MUST believe in a God.

Note I have explained many times why I participated in this Islam forum for my project and I have gained a lot from it. As long at it is necessary I will continue to discuss in this forum.

I have been dismissing that kind of crap for 16 years on the 'net'. I reflect on their ignorance about the Qur'an. Every "error" is error of the unbeliever in understanding the Qur'an. It is because of the Qur'an that I am still a Muslim. Had it been due to nice, lovely and flowery language, I would have been Christian and a crusader. Alhamdulillah (The praise is for Allah).

You could have discussing such points for a hundred years but it does not meant you are stating the truth.

You are a Muslim because you was born a Muslim and due to very terrible psychology it is very difficult for one to change one's religion.
Even if there is any sign of error, contradiction and falsehoods in one's religious beliefs, a believer MUST do all it take to deflect it away. This is why you are still a Muslim, i.e. the religion of your birth.

Note this case;

It took me about two years to recover from religion. I ended up in the hospital with panic disorder and I had thoughts of suicide. Two years of counseling and self-guided Cognitive Behavioral Therapy were required.
//www.city-data.com/blogs/blog4...-syndrome.html

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Khalif

It is from God. A man could not have authored it. Would you care to author similar book? Claim it is from God, and see how far you get with it.

Originally Posted by Continuum

First you cannot prove God exists, so how can the Quran be authored by a God.

Because you or any other man can’t author a book like the Qur’an, claim it as word of God and have billions of people believe it as word of God, it is from God and not from a man.

Originally Posted by Continuum

Your challenge to write another book is a stupid challenge.

I see your comment here in the light of your utter failure to take up a valid challenge.

Originally Posted by Continuum

I [& many] can easily write another low religious quality like the Quran, but why should I waste my time of a low quality book.

To prove your point about the Qur’an that it is authored by human or a group of people!
Why don’t you prove your point by writing such book, claim it to be authored by God, and see how far it goes compared with the Qur’an?

Originally Posted by Continuum

The fact is there are millions of books out there that are better than the Quran in terms of topics [including religious and spirituality], contents and usefulness to humanity.

None of them are word of God in their entirety as the Qur’an is. If it is a low quality book, I am sure you will be a lot more successful in writing a better book than the Qur’an. Why not prove your point about the Qur’an by writing another better word of God than the Qur’an?

Originally Posted by Khalif

If you, an educated (assumed) man can't do it, Muhammad an uneducated man couldn't have done it.

Originally Posted by Continuum

Why should I waste my time on such a low quality book.

To prove your point about the Qur’an!
You will definitely waste your time because your attempt will certainly end in your utter failure.

Originally Posted by Continuum

The point is humans had written milli ons of books which are better than the Quran.

You are human too, aren’t you? Why can’t you do it?

Originally Posted by Continuum

This meant the Quran cannot be authored by a God, because if it is authored by a God, it cannot be of such low quality.

Originally Posted by Continuum

I refer you to just this one book, i.e. Avatamsaka Sutra which is written by humans.

Is it authored by God, and is claimed to be Word of God?
If not, don’t sent me on a wild goose chase! If you can’t write it, Muhammad could not have written it.

Originally Posted by Khalif

Nor did the Qur'an mention health or spiritual benefit!

Originally Posted by Continuum

2:219 refer to 'benefits' in general. In most [almost all] cases the benefits is related to one's credit in going to Paradise.

There will be absolutely no benefit in drinking alcohol or gambling towards credit in going to Paradise when the Qur’an is clear that SIN is GREATER. Sin in drinking alcohol and gambling means definite credit towards going to hell.

Originally Posted by Khalif

You have to die first to see the ultimate reality. You will see the proof after your death as the hereafter is not within your reality.

Originally Posted by Continuum

What kind of proof is that?

I haven’t given you proof. I merely explained to you that ultimately reality is not within your world. You will see it in the Hereafter.

Originally Posted by Continuum

I can make any claim I like [e.g. you will definitely go to hell regardless of what you belief] and insist you can only know when you are dead. How are you going to prove me wrong by your own standard.

I will be fool to tell you that you are definitely going to hell regardless of your belief. But what I can tell you is that Allah has revealed through the Qur’an that this world is only temporary and the world to come is the lasting one. Therefore ultimate reality is not within your reality.

Originally Posted by Continuum

This is a very stupid argument.

Yes, your argument is an argument in ignorance of the ultimate reality.

Originally Posted by Khalif

God condones justice, not evil or else I would be doing evil and violence.

Originally Posted by Continuum

Note Buddhism and Jainism which do no believe in any ultimate God promote a pacifist ideology at its fundamental level and there are no Buddhists and Jains shouting Buddha-u-Akbar and quoting Buddhist texts and killing non-believers.

They kill believers. Perhaps you haven’t visited Burma (Myanmar) lately. You are talking nonsense here about Buddhist in Myanmar.

Originally Posted by Continuum

On the other hand there are thousands of Jihadists and evil Muslims shouting Allahu Akbar and quoting texts from the Quran to kill justify their killing of non-Muslims.

I too shout ALLAHU AKBAR and quote texts from the Qur’an but I do not kill anyone. Your argument here is stupid argument. It is nothing but the result of brainwashing and radicalisation of the masses (your reality) by the politicians and media. ALLAHU AKBAR! I have just killed your argument. Am I jihadist?

Originally Posted by Continuum

Your not doing evil and violence is because you are more of a practicing good human rather than a better Muslim.

I am a human and a Muslim. Even though I say ALLAHU AKBAR 50+ times a day, it doesn’t mean it is evil to say ALLAHU AKBAR.

Originally Posted by Khalif

Just because you can't understand the Qur'an? Why should the Qur'an comply with your wishes?

Originally Posted by Continuum

I did not expect the Quran to comply with my wishes. I am just interpreting what the Quran intended to convey.

You need to understand the Qur’an before you can interpret it correctly.

Originally Posted by Khalif

Such crap from you won't shake my faith. Verifiable facts are reality, ultimate reality is not verifiable whilst you are stuck in reality of your world, and think that nothing else exists outside your world.

Originally Posted by Continuum

I am not out to shake your faith. I am merely stating facts objectively.

You brought up the matter of shaking faith; not I. You stated crap; not fact.

Originally Posted by Continuum

If your ultimate reality is not verifiable, then anything goes. You can even insist square-circles exist without the need to verify it.

It is verifiable but not inside your reality. It is outside your reality. Your reality is material and ultimate reality is spiritual.

Originally Posted by Continuum

The point is whatever is verifiable must be possible even if it is not available for verification at present. I can speculate human-liked aliens exist somewhere in the universe billions of light years from Earth. This speculation though not achievable at present is tenable because we are dealing with possible elements.

That means a world outside your world is possible just because you say so but if Allah says something like that why isn’t it possible?

Originally Posted by Continuum

The problem with ultimate reality in your sense, i.e. God [whether near or far] is an impossible proposition. You can believe in a God via faith but it is impossible for God to exists as real.

It’s because ultimate reality outside your reality. You need to get there first to realize it is the ultimate reality. It is not only about existence of God but where you will not die.

Originally Posted by Khalif

I am not denying that there is no abrogation of the text and verses within the Qur'an but I am denying that there is abrogation within the verses of the Qur'an. It seems as if you are unable to understand what I am stating (or even what you are asking).

Originally Posted by Continuum

What is the problem with asking to reconfirm your position.

No problem. You had wrongly assumed my position.

Originally Posted by Khalif

Your claim about the Qur'an is completely false. Quote the verse of the Qur'an in which it is stated that the Torah and Injil have been abrogated with the Qur'an since they were corrupted!

Originally Posted by Continuum

Note I never claimed the Quran used the term 'abrogation' to refer to the overriding of the Injil and Torah.

But you did claim that Allah knew the Torah and Injil were corrupted and the Qur’an claimed so too. You had given this reason as to why it wasn’t about abrogation of the Torah and Injil. You did use the term “corrupted”. Where in the Qur’an is that term stated?

Originally Posted by Continuum

We have discussed and note the OP I raised to support why the Quran claim the Injil and Torah are corrupted.

You still haven’t given me that verse in which is this claim.

Originally Posted by Khalif

My faith in God is working perfectly despite your "proof" after "proof" that there is no God. I also do not complain about torture and being roasted in hell like others without faith. I am not worried about the ultimate reality or hate from Allah (SWT) because I am not guilty of any crime or evil act. My faith will be shaken only if I were doing evil acts. No unbeliever is going to shake my faith. Any such attempt is seen by me as insecurity on the part of such unbeliever.

Originally Posted by Continuum

Btw I am not concern with specifically shaking your faith at all.

You brought it up. Why if you were not concerned?

Originally Posted by Continuum

My project is to establish the hypothesis on how the root causes of all the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME [not you] Muslims who are born naturally with strong proclivities to evils and violence are traceable to the evil laden verses in the Quran.

Then stick to the verses only and not with existence of God unless your motive is more than what you state here!

Originally Posted by Khalif

You are presenting and arguing against the Qur'an simply because you are, deep down, insecure. Otherwise you wouldn't care less what I believe and what I do not believe. My eeman shouldn't affect you at all as its value is only with me.

Originally Posted by Continuum

As stated above and implied elsewhere I actually don't give a damn about your belief in Islam on a personal basis. That is up to your own discretion.

When you begin to question my faith, without knowledge, you are going beyond the requirements of your project. You are doing that simply because of your own insecurity.

Originally Posted by Continuum

My discussion of Islam is with any one in this forum not just you, therefore it is not personal but general in line with my hypothesis. What I am glad with discussing with you is your Quran-Only belief which I believe is a higher grade of Muslim_ness or eeman.

That is a load of crap in view of what you believe about Allah.

Originally Posted by Khalif

When it comes to the Qur'an, I know that the dumb and deaf will not understand the Qur'an until the ultimate reality hits them.

Originally Posted by Continuum

I know what you meant because I understand even the most notable atheist turned to be a deist in later life when the faculties has weakened.

Not all of them in this life. But you missed the point that every unbeliever will believe once out of this reality and into the ultimate reality (of hereafter.

Originally Posted by Continuum

Maybe it will happen to some but not me and some others who have the spiritual maturity to override the basis threat issued in the Quran.
I have done extensive research on this issue.
This point is one reason why some said, there are no atheists in fox holes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_...ts_in_foxholes
This happens only to some people not all.

All will believe once into ultimate reality; even you.

Originally Posted by Khalif

Headless chickens can't think that he could easily have removed or destroyed the verses after "reflection" days, months or years later. The fact of the matter is that you are trying to grab a straw that isn't even there.

Originally Posted by Continuum

Note Muhammad is supposedly under the total control of Allah. So there is no way Muhammad could easily have removed or destroyed the verses later.

Not true but even then it proves my point that he could have said so just as you are saying that Allah is saying so about the Qur’an.
Funny how you jump from one belief about the Qur’an to another as your fancy takes!
Now it isn’t a group of people who authored the Qur’an but Allah through His control of Muhammad. Very good!

Originally Posted by Khalif

I have my reasons about existence of God just as you have your reason about God. My belief about God is at least on good faith, your belief is not even on good faith but based on insecurity and fear of hell as an unbeliever. If you were so secure in your reality, you wouldn't care less arguing about existence of God in this Islam forum.

Originally Posted by Continuum

I am indifferent to the concept of God. However I am equipped to explain why it is impossible for God to exists and why theists MUST believe in a God.

Then you can’t claim at the same time that Muhammad was supposedly in control of God.

Originally Posted by Continuum

Note I have explained many times why I participated in this Islam forum for my project and I have gained a lot from it. As long at it is necessary I will continue to discuss in this forum.

You will learn nothing for your project if you don’t know what to believe about the Qur’an and Allah controlling Muhammad but someone else writing the Qur’an.

Originally Posted by Khalif

I have been dismissing that kind of crap for 16 years on the 'net'. I reflect on their ignorance about the Qur'an. Every "error" is error of the unbeliever in understanding the Qur'an. It is because of the Qur'an that I am still a Muslim. Had it been due to nice, lovely and flowery language, I would have been Christian and a crusader. Alhamdulillah (The praise is for Allah).

Originally Posted by Continuum

You could have discussing such points for a hundred years but it does not meant you are stating the truth.

I am telling you about discussions, and fact that I am still a Muslim because of the Qur’an.
[quote=Continuum;44279343]You are a Muslim because you was born a Muslim and due to very terrible psychology it is very difficult for one to change one's religion.[/QUOTE}Of course, but it is not impossible. All are born Muslims but they become non-muslims later on. Some like you can even give up their religion. You have mentioned one or two ex Muslims too.

Originally Posted by Continuum

Even if there is any sign of error, contradiction and falsehoods in one's religious beliefs, a believer MUST do all it take to deflect it away. This is why you are still a Muslim, i.e. the religion of your birth.

It would be silly to believe in falsehood. There are no falsehoods of errors, contradictions or abrogation in the Qur’an. Those who fail to understand the Qur’an see all of that in the Qur’an and often leave for pubs to get some benefits that way. .

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Khalif

Because you or any other man can’t author a book like the Qur’an, claim it as word of God and have billions of people believe it as word of God, it is from God and not from a man.
I see your comment here in the light of your utter failure to take up a valid challenge.
To prove your point about the Qur’an that it is authored by human or a group of people!
Why don’t you prove your point by writing such book, claim it to be authored by God, and see how far it goes compared with the Qur’an?
None of them are word of God in their entirety as the Qur’an is. If it is a low quality book, I am sure you will be a lot more successful in writing a better book than the Qur’an. Why not prove your point about the Qur’an by writing another better word of God than the Qur’an?

To prove your point about the Qur’an!
You will definitely waste your time because your attempt will certainly end in your utter failure.
You are human too, aren’t you? Why can’t you do it?

Is it authored by God, and is claimed to be Word of God?
If not, don’t sent me on a wild goose chase! If you can’t write it, Muhammad could not have written it.

Since your so dogmatic and insistence on it, I have to say you are VERY STUPID and insulting your own intelligence on this specific issue.

Note I have opened a thread to discuss this point,
//www.city-data.com/forum/islam...ther-like.html

There will be absolutely no benefit in drinking alcohol or gambling towards credit in going to Paradise when the Qur’an is clear that SIN is GREATER. Sin in drinking alcohol and gambling means definite credit towards going to hell.

You are changing the subject to benefit as a credit to going to Paradise.
The point in 2:219 is Allah admit there is SOME benefit to alcohol as anyone sensible in the world [Muslims or non-Muslims] would have recognized. Every one will also recognized despite any benefits from alcohol there are risks to the physical and mental health of the person if one takes alcohol to the extreme.
This point is supported by the verse where alcohol [wine] is available in Paradise.

Allah did not specify a Muslim drinker of alcohol will go and end up permanently in Hell. It may be a GREAT SIN [I am sure it vary with how much and regularity one take alcohol] but it is not an unpardonable sin like murder without reason and associating partners to Allah. So you understanding of the Quran is shallow in this case.

I haven’t given you proof. I merely explained to you that ultimately reality is not within your world. You will see it in the Hereafter.
I will be fool to tell you that you are definitely going to hell regardless of your belief. But what I can tell you is that Allah has revealed through the Qur’an that this world is only temporary and the world to come is the lasting one. Therefore ultimate reality is not within your reality.
Yes, your argument is an argument in ignorance of the ultimate reality.

Your explanation is based on Allah's words.
But Allah cannot be proven to exists except via faith [no proofs].
So whatever Allah states cannot be credible against the fact of reality.

I have no issue if you qualify with the following logic;

There is no proofs Allah exists, therefore this is not true.
'Ultimate reality is not within your reality based on Allah's words.
Therefore Ultimate reality is not true.

Note the logical format;
A is B
C is A, therefore
C is B.

They kill believers. Perhaps you haven’t visited Burma (Myanmar) lately. You are talking nonsense here about Buddhist in Myanmar.

Though I am not officially a Buddhist I am quite an expert on Buddhist doctrine and philosophy.
The majority of people in Myanmar are Buddhists [monks and lay] of the Theravadian School.
My hypothesis: 20% of all humans thus Buddhists are evil prone.
Thus is obvious 20% of Buddhists in Myanmar has evil tendencies.
Those Buddhists in Myanmar committed violence because they are naturally evil prone and not because they were influenced and inspired by any LEADING violent verses in the texts of Buddhism.
Show me evidence where it is reported those evil prone Buddhists shouted Buddha-u-Akbar and quoted Buddhist verses to justify their evils and violence.

I too shout ALLAHU AKBAR and quote texts from the Qur’an but I do not kill anyone. Your argument here is stupid argument. It is nothing but the result of brainwashing and radicalisation of the masses (your reality) by the politicians and media. ALLAHU AKBAR! I have just killed your argument. Am I jihadist?
I am a human and a Muslim. Even though I say ALLAHU AKBAR 50+ times a day, it doesn’t mean it is evil to say ALLAHU AKBAR.

As usual [many times] you are quick to jump to conclusion based on bad comprehension and shallow thinking.
I did not claim evil prone Muslims committed evils and violence because of the phrase ALLAHU AKBAR. My implications was they were influenced and inspired by the evil laden verses in the Quran and shouting ALLAHU AKBAR is secondary. Any Muslim [good, bad, ugly, evil] can shout ALLAHU AKBAR and follow up whatever good or evil.