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Originally Posted by Khalif
You have not demonstrated that the Qur'an condemned their scriptures are corrupted. Nowhere in the Qur'an their scriptures are condemned as corrupted.
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I have provided the supporting verses where Allah condemned the Jews and Christians as having changed, altered, hide verses from the original revelations from Allah.
This is proven from the present Torah and Injil where there is a lot of differences from the doctrines of the Quran.
If the Torah and Injil had not been corrupted then there should be no controversial verses between them [as present] and the Quran [at present].
Because there are serious difference in doctrine between the Torah & Injil and the Quran, therefore it confirm Allah assertion that they former are corrupted.
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The Qur'an does not say so. It confirms, "which you possess already".
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Stating "which you possess already" do not implied absolute confirmation at all.
The possibility is Allah could refer to a group of Jews or Christians who had the original full version. But this is not likely.
The more likely is it refer to what they have in [between their] hand and in reference to the majority of the verses which are inline with the Quran but it does not mean 100%.
In various verses Allah asserted the Torah and Injil are corrupted as far as the critical verses are concern and this could be say x quantity of verses [or whatever].
Therefore when Allah state it confirms, it does not mean 100% but only those verses that are the same as the Quran's but we cannot ignore the critical verses that were altered, changed or forgotten.
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Injil is what was preached by Jesus. Jesus never preached that he is begotten son of God. The Qur'an confirms this, and Jesus will deny on the day of judgment that he had preached that he is begotten son of God or even God and preached that the Christians should worship him.
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From the Quran and Islam perspective, the original Injil from Allah did not reflect Jesus asserted he is the begotten son of God.
But where is that copy of Injil [Quranic version] that stated Jesus was the son of Mary, merely a prophet, was never crucified, etc. There is No such copy of the Injil.
The only Injil that we can refer to is the present copy in the NT and this NT can be traced to before Muhammad.
This prove Allah knew the Injil was corrupted long ago.
If Allah confirm what the Jews or Christian has on hand, it refer to verses that are not corrupted.
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Is this in reference to their scriptures or to the revelation of the Qur'an?
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Those are verses in the Quran which accused the Jews and Christians as changing and corrupting the original texts from Allah.
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It is not what was in the Injil but what has been made of the Injil in terms of doctrine and interpretation. No quote of Jesus (Injil) is rejected in the Qur'an. It is what is made of his quotes that is rejected in the Qur'an. The Qur'an also reconfirms what has been "forgotten" of the Injil (2:106). Nothing has been forgotten of the Qur'an.
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Note;
1. Allah sent the original Injil to Jesus. [e.g. Jesus was human and prophet of Allah not son].
2. Allah in the Quran condemned, after Jesus' death, the Christians changed the texts.
3. The present Injil of the Christian assert Jesus is the begotten Son.
4. Therefore the present Injil is corrupted when it was changed.
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An unbeliever telling a believer that he does not understand the Qur'an, is really stupid. If I learn the Qur'an from an unbeliever, I am certain to end up in hell fire with such an unbeliever.
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This is very possible.
A believer by default MUST be bias to deal with the desperate existential psychology within him.
That is why believers rely on faith and not proofs and justifiable reasons.
With faith, a believer will take a lie as truth if necessary otherwise his faith will be shaken.
Therefore an unbeliever who is intelligent, rational, unbias, credible it more likely to have a greater objective understanding of the Quran than the average Muslim.
It is true if you learn from a credible unbeliever you could end up in a made-believed Hell in accordance to the Quran. But Hell is a lie. Therefore if you learn from an unbeliever, you will learn the truth and not a lie.
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How can you say "obviously" when neither the Jews nor the Christians are mentioned in the verse? Why not people of Lot and apostates?
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That is because you have only read the Quran 6-7 times.
If you read the Quran chronologically, one will feel the tension of anger building up in the author [i.e. Muhammad] of the Quran because the Jews were accused of changing or left out the verses that would have supported that Muhammad [Ahmed] prophesized in the Torah.
The term "wrath" is directed at the Jews in many occasions, e.g.
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2:59 But those who did wrong changed the word which had been told them for another saying, and We sent down upon the evil-doers wrath from heaven for their evil-doing.
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In addition the Jews also mocked Muhammad because Muhammad was not smart enough to out debate the Jews.
This anger and hatred of the Jews is well ingrained and imbued into the ethos of the Quran and Islam, and the evidence of it manifesting in SOME Muslims in reality is SO obvious. You will be dumb to deny this reality.
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It is not corruption of the text but of their original belief. Their original belief was "One God" and the only God to be worshiped.
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There is the original revelations from Allah sent via Jesus.
When the Christians [as accused] changed the revelations and put those changes in texts, that is obvious the texts are corrupted.
Hey are you dreaming, note my OP;
"Quran Claimed Present Torah, Gospels are Corrupted."
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Revealed Injil is what was preached by Jesus. Jesus never claimed or preached that he is begotten son of God. Words of other people cannot be assumed as teachings of Jesus. The same is the case with the revelation to Muhammad. It is only the Qur'an that is from Allah and not the hadith books. Muhammad wasn't preaching hadith books but the Qur'an. The only scriptures for Muslims are the verses of the Qur'an. The Qur'an is not corrupted just because there are some hadith books.
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Note again my points as above;
1. Allah sent the original Injil to Jesus. [e.g. Jesus was human and prophet of Allah not son].
2. After Jesus' death, the Christians changed the texts.
3. The present Injil of the Christian assert Jesus is the begotten Son.
4. Therefore the present Injil is corrupted when it was changed.
Note Allah obviously knew what he delivered to Jesus.
What Allah is condemning in the Quran is the Christians after Jesus' death, changed Allah revelations.
YEs, the "words of other people cannot be assumed as teachings of Jesus" as you had stated.
But the point is these words of other people are put into texts [NT] and claimed to be from Allah by the Christians.
Allah is condemning this as corruption of his original revelations.
Get this?
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Allah does not condemn Injil but those who assign a son to Allah.
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It is obvious Allah will not condemned his own Injil as originally delivered to Jesus.
Allah was condemning the "Injil" which the Christians had then and now is corrupted because it is not in accordance to the original Injil delivered to Jesus.
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No. Speak is words of their mouth only and Injil is in text attributed to what Jesus had actually spoken.
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You are very confused.
As I had stated above, after Jesus's death the Christians changed the texts of the Injil say between 100AD to 600AD.
Now obviously when the Christians spoke then, they must be speaking with reference to the written texts.
Allah is condemning the Christians for speaking from the corrupted texts of the Injil.
As for "confirmation" this refers to the unchanged verses which are similar to the Quran.
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Nowhere even in the Gospels Jesus had claimed to be the begotten son of God. It is made up by other people long after Jesus. Jesus himself never claimed so in his own words.
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Yes according the Islamic Allah, the Gospels did not claim Jesus to be the begotten son of God.
But in accordance to the Christian God, the Gospels claimed Jesus is the begotten son of God.
Thus the Islamic Allah condemned the Christian's version of the Gospel as corrupted because it was changed.
You can verify this in the present NT in the present Bible which is different from the present Quran's version of Jesus' status.
Thus the OP is correct because the difference is obvious, thus the Islamic Allah in the Quran condemned the Christians' version of the Gospel as corrupted.
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I can certainly understand your desperation because I know this subject better than you do.
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Yours is an imagination and a very subjective opinion. The proofs of who know better is in the objective views in my posts.
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Just repeating it like a parrot again and again won't make it true.
Not all the Jews and Christians are condemned but only some of them for not observing the Torah and forgetting what they were remanded of.
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Regardless of some or more the fact is the present Torah and Gospels are critically different from the present Quran.
Therefore from Islam point of view the present Torah and Injil are corrupted and this is supported by the various verses [I have provided] that accused them of being corrupted.
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False accusation!
Muhammad didn't even know what the revelation was until made aware of by Allah through the Qur'an. In the Qur'an, he was directed by Allah to Jews and Christians (who read the previous scriptures) to know what is revelation.
[10.94] But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.
It does not say "corrupted book" but "book".
The heap of accusations directed towards Muhammad by some people is utter ignorance of the facts about the revelation of the Qur'an, and is nothing but just hate against Islam.
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Yours is an imagination and false accusation of hate.
There are undeniable facts of terrible evils and violence committed by SOME [not all] Muslims who were born with evil tendencies and are influenced and inspired by lots of evil laden verses in the Quran and the martial ethos Muhammad. There is no way you can deny this. Thus my basis is reality and not some imaginations.
Now these terrible evils and violence is a threat to humanity and has an impact on me personally. In view of this, I have the right to be critical of those evils and violence to trace the root causes. Such an exercise is doing a favor and contribution to the good of humanity out of empathy and compassion. If no one bother to criticize such evils and violence it will continue forever. In view of such a positive efforts why you do associate it with 'hate'.
I have also provided you facts from research of how thousands of people in history who has altered states of consciousness are prone to claim to be agent of God. Such experiences are illusory and can be cured by medicines and counselling. Muhammad have had altered states of consciousness and bad trips.
I have also argued and presented the psychological basis of a believer who MUST be bias or else his/her faith will not work.
I have presented many other facts and justifiable arguments.
If you want to accuse me making false accusations and hate, you need to provide objective arguments to show me where I am wrong. So far you have presented no objective arguments I am wrong [if objective I will accept] but merely subjective opinions.