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Old 05-27-2016, 01:14 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 1,159,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Basically abrogation in the Qur'an is an erroneous concept caused by misunderstanding the words: Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh. There is also the mistaken belief by some non-Muslims that newer Surat over-ride earlier Surat.

While it is true some earlier Surat had additional requirements added, they have not been replaced nor or they void. the best example is the Al-Nasekh regarding alcohol. First it was forbidden to pray in the Mosque if intoxicated. later it was added that is was forbidden to be intoxicated. It is still forbidden to be intoxicated in the Mosque. that has not been replaced nor voided. Next it was added any excessive drinking is forbidden, The previous 2 are not voided. Finaly any amount of alcohol consumption was forbidden. The previous ayyat were not replaced nor voided. This goes for every surat that have had an Al-naekh added.

There is also failure for people to understand that in Surat 9 ayyats 1-10 refer to a specific instance at a specific time.
Nope. Some of this is either/or. Either you are allowed to drink wine(with or without conditions)...or you are not. There is no 'You can drink wine but you can never drink wine." Initially people were allowed to drink win, with conditions, Then it was forbidden. Do not say " It is still forbidden to be intoxicated in the Mosque." when drinking is totally forbidden. You are trying to obfuscate, like happened with that whole 'place on earth' business. The earlier verses were rendered useless by a total forbidding of wine.

Let's look at the actual verses:

2:219] They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses [of revelation] that you might give thought.

So, the first verse says that drinking and gambling could provide a benefit and also have bad effects. There was no forbidding, just warning that the bad could outweigh the good. There are even instructions on only spending excess money on these things. That is hardly forbidding!!

Next, another ayah was revealed that forbade the Muslims to come to prayer so drunk they cannot speak, Surah 4:43.

O you who have believed, do not approach prayer while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying.....

Still allowed to drink wine!!

Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 142:

Narrated Jabir:
Some people drank alcoholic beverages in the morning (of the day) of the Uhud battle and on the same day they were killed as martyrs, and that was before wine was prohibited.

Now we come to 5:90 - the demand to stop drinking wine.

O you who believe! Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), gambling, Al-Ansab, and Al-Azlam (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of Shaitan's (Satan) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful.

Drinking is now completely forbidden and is from Satan.

I would think that it is clear that drinking wine was allowed and done in some verses until Allah decided that wine must be from Satan and forbid it entirely.

So, the last verse abrogated, wiped out, rendered useless the earlier verses. Either/or.

either/or: an unavoidable choice or exclusive division between only two alternatives
Either

Either you can drink wine, or you can't. (Maybe you are telling us that the later verses are abrogated by earlier verses because you like wine!! )

Why did the all-knowing allah change his mind? Because allah is really muhammed. THAT is the wider context.
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Old 05-27-2016, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Birmingham
3,640 posts, read 27,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Here is an example where the translator points to the abrogating verse:

2:240
Muhsin Khan
And those of you who die and leave behind wives should bequeath for their wives a year's maintenance and residence without turning them out, but if they (wives) leave, there is no sin on you for that which they do of themselves, provided it is honourable (e.g. lawful marriage). And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise. [The order of this Verse has been cancelled (abrogated) by Verse 4:12].
Surat Al-Baqarah [2:240] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????

4:12
Muhsin Khan
In that which your wives leave, your share is a half if they have no child; but if they leave a child, you get a fourth of that which they leave after payment of legacies that they may have bequeathed or debts. In that which you leave, their (your wives) share is a fourth if you leave no child; but if you leave a child, they get an eighth of that which you leave after payment of legacies that you may have bequeathed or debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of lagacies he (or she) may have bequeathed or debts, so that no loss is caused (to anyone). This is a Commandment [alert Woodrow] from Allah; and Allah is Ever All-Knowing, Most-Forbearing.
How can any translator say centuries after the revelation of the Qur'an that 2:240 was abrogated by 4:12 when there is nothing to abrogate from 2:240?

Do you even know what was cancelled or abrogated that is different in 4:12 from 2:240?

It is quite obvious that you just quoted these verses without thinking and really understanding them. The way I read and understand these two verses, both compliment each other and there is nothing in 2:240 that is not in 4:12. In other words, what is in 2:240 is also in 4:12 rather than changed in 4:12.

As I had stated in my earlier post, these abrogations, contradictions and confusions are not in the Qur'an but in the minds only of the people who have failed to understand the Qur'an. They have failed to reconcile one verse with another verse of the Qur'an on the same issue. Therefore, they, in their inability to understand, go for an easy way out of their ignorance about the Qur'an; abrogation or contradiction. Funny thing about such people is that they do not agree with each other as to which verse abrogates 2:240. In other words, they contradict each other.

If you doubt what I have stated here, tell me what has completely changed in 4:12 from 2:240?
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Old 05-27-2016, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Birmingham
3,640 posts, read 27,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Nope. Some of this is either/or. Either you are allowed to drink wine(with or without conditions)...or you are not. There is no 'You can drink wine but you can never drink wine."
In which verse did you read, "You can drink wine"?

Quote:
Initially people were allowed to drink win, with conditions, Then it was forbidden.
Initially people were already drinking wine rather than the Qur'an (which was not revealed all at once) "allowed" it by saying, "You can drink wine". There isn't even one verse in the Qur'an that says, "You can drink wine" or "You may drink wine" (which would actually mean wine drinking was "allowed").

Prove me wrong if you are truthful!
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Old 05-27-2016, 03:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
In which verse did you read, "You can drink wine"?

Initially people were already drinking wine rather than the Qur'an (which was not revealed all at once) "allowed" it by saying, "You can drink wine". There isn't even one verse in the Qur'an that says, "You can drink wine" or "You may drink wine" (which would actually mean wine drinking was "allowed").

Prove me wrong if you are truthful!
THINK!! Why would allah say don't spend money that is necessary on wine if drinking wine was forbidden? Why would drunkenness to the point of being unable to speak during prayer be specifically forbidden if ALL consumption of wine was forbidden.

If I tell you not to use the internet on Sunday mornings unless it is for study, does that mean I forbid you to ever use the internet? Come on! I am so sick of your obfuscation.

And think about this. You say the Quran was not revealed all at once. THAT is what makes this laughable. Allah 'knows all' so why not send down a verse that forbids drinking wine right from the start since allah knew that wine was from the devil. And allah also said that this abomination from Satan has benefits!!

What probably happened is that Muhammed knew he wouldn't get many initial followers if he started out forbidding wine outright. So he did it in stages.

At any rate, you now have an excellent example of abrogation. Not that I think it will matter to you.
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Old 05-27-2016, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Birmingham
3,640 posts, read 27,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Basically abrogation in the Qur'an is an erroneous concept caused by misunderstanding the words: Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh.
Actually abrogation within the Qur'an is an erroneous concept, as if God changed His mind, entirely due to some people being unable to reconcile one verse of the Qur'an with another verse of the Qur'an on the same issue. They had to find an answer to their failure to understand and found one in this erroneous concept.

There is no unanimity whatsoever among the upholders of "doctrine of abrogation" as to which, and how many, Qur'an verses have been affected by it. Their contradicting each other is quite telling about their failure in understanding the Qur'an.

To understand the Qur'an correctly, one must take into account each part of every verse in the Qur'an on the same issue.
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Old 05-27-2016, 04:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
How can any translator say centuries after the revelation of the Qur'an that 2:240 was abrogated by 4:12 when there is nothing to abrogate from 2:240?
Go ask him. I'm just reporting the facts.

Muhammad Muhsin Khan (Arabic, Pashto, Urdū: محمد محسن خان born 1345 Al-Hijri[1] (1927) is a contemporary Islamic scholar of ethnic Afghan origin, most notable for his renowned English translations of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an, entitled The Noble Qur'an, which he completed along with Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali.

Muhammad Muhsin Khan (Translator of The Noble Qur'an)

This is the complete 9-volume set on which the popular Noble Qur'an Summarized (Dr. Mhd. Muhsin Khan and Dr. Taqi-ud Din Al-Hilali) is based upon. The translators based their work on references from some of the most respected books of Tafseer, including At-Tabari, Al-Qurtubi, and Ibn Kathir. Includes commentary from Sahih al-Bukhari.

This is the complete 9-volume set on which the popular Noble Qur'an Summarized (Dr. Mhd. Muhsin Khan and Dr. Taqi-ud Din Al-Hilali) is based upon. The translators based their work on references from some of the most respected books of Tafseer, including At-Tabari, Al-Qurtubi, and Ibn Kathir. Includes commentary from Sahih al-Bukhari.

Noble Qur'an Complete Tafsir 9 Volume Set Deluxe set (in White Dust Jackets)
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Old 05-27-2016, 04:38 PM
 
2,049 posts, read 1,060,737 times
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[quote=mahasn sawresho;44208017]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahasn sawresho View Post

You must give us the position of the Muslim scholars
please not your opinion
In order for be useful dialogue

The oldest following proposal
and we Follow the following method
Write verse and translated her words
Then we show the opinions of Muslim jurists
Then we offer personal positions
are you accepted ?????

following this method in this topic????

Wait for your answer ---yes or no ????
Not to accept my request This means that you refuse it
I speak Arabic well
To understand the Quranic text you must know that the Arab
I am here ready to help you understand the words of the Koran
اYou are free to refuse this assist
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Old 05-27-2016, 05:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
As I had stated in my earlier post, these abrogations, contradictions and confusions are not in the Qur'an but in the minds only of the people who have failed to understand the Qur'an. They have failed to reconcile one verse with another verse of the Qur'an on the same issue. Therefore, they, in their inability to understand, go for an easy way out of their ignorance about the Qur'an; abrogation or contradiction. Funny thing about such people is that they do not agree with each other as to which verse abrogates 2:240. In other words, they contradict each other.

If you doubt what I have stated here, tell me what has completely changed in 4:12 from 2:240?
مهلا
يا خليفة
Oh Khalifa

Does all Muslim jurists do not understand the Koran
Only Mr. Khalifa understands the Koran
The charge is that the Islamic history books
You send a a dangerous accusation
Ibn Hazm - canceled and canceling in the Holy Quran
Ibn al - joze the people entrenched in jurisprudence and modernization by the copied talk
Duplicator and copied book written by Judge Abu Bakr Mohammed bin Abdullah bin Mohammed bin Arab Almaevri Seville Maliki / T 453 H
Library edition religious culture Cairo investigation and study of the great Abdul upper Mdaghri
al-nesabory
The book: duplicator and copied in the Koran title
Author: Mohammed bin Muslim bin Obeid-Allah Bin Shihab syphilis
Detective: Mustafa Mahmoud al-Azhari
Indexing Status: Non-Indexed
Publisher: Dar Ibn values - Dar Ibn Affan
Year of Publication: 1429 - 2008
abrogation in Islam, the general sense; he is: "Raising a former legal judgment, as evidenced by a legitimate late with him in the revelation of" the time and is not only from God, his command and his reign, he is Lord of all, and the owner of everything, and he may begin to worship judgment, then abrogation this provision, ie: bump up and remove it. It must its frank transport from the Prophet peace be upon him. abrogation have been shown in specific positions of: the Koran, and talk. And introduces the subject of abrogation within: forensic science. It is most important: the Koran sciences that are interested: verses and hadiths abrogation and abrogation, and aware of: the assets of Islamic jurisprudence, that deals with the provisions of the .abrogation
Despite all this evidence of the books of the Muslims
Friend Khalifa accuse us that we do not understand the Koran
Are all these people do not understand the Koran????
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Old 05-27-2016, 05:15 PM
 
2,049 posts, read 1,060,737 times
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It copies types Also, abrogation of the year year, and it abrogation passport **** fun, which it was permissible first, then abrogation later; narrated Illes ibn Salamah from his father, he said: (licenses Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him in Ootas in the fun then forbade) Narrated by Muslim, Bukhari Bob has this saying: Bab forbade the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him for marrying another fun.
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Old 05-27-2016, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Birmingham
3,640 posts, read 27,526 times
Reputation: 470
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
THINK!! Why would allah say don't spend money that is necessary on wine if drinking wine was forbidden?
You are not THINKING!!!

I deliberately did not comment on the verse 2:219 because I knew you would bring it up in your next post and I will be telling you where you have gone wrong in understanding this verse. I quote the verse:

[2.219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the messages, that you may ponder

Read carefully, and ponder over this verse. There are three different issues included in this verse; (1) intoxicant, (2) games of chance (gambling) and (3) what to spend. The answer given in red was for one question. The answer given in blue is not about intoxicant and gambling but about spending money in charity, alms, good causes beginning with the close relatives in need. It is senseless to think that such spending is for intoxicants and gambling when the sin in them is greater than profit. Why should someone spend everything spare on something that is sin greater than the profit making?

Here is the same question about spending just 4 verses earlier:

[2.215] They ask you as to what they should spend. Say: Whatever wealth you spend, it is for the parents and the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, and whatever good you do, Allah surely knows it.

No mention of spending on intoxicants and gambling but on others for good causes. How did you miss that?

As I had stated in one of my other posts, the question about spending wasn't on intoxicants and gambling but for good causes. If you spend it on yourself, you have not spared it. You spare it only if you do not spend it on yourself by drinking and gambling. No wonder you can't understand the Qur'an!

Quote:
Why would drunkenness to the point of being unable to speak during prayer be specifically forbidden if ALL consumption of wine was forbidden.
Up to that point, drinking alcohol was neither forbidden nor allowed by any verse of the Qur'an as it was pre-Islamic practice. It was forbidden gradually but never actually "allowed" in any verse.

Quote:
If I tell you not to use the internet on Sunday mornings unless it is for study, does that mean I forbid you to ever use the internet? Come on! I am so sick of your obfuscation.
If I tell you, "Don't come to the mosque drunk", I am NOT telling you, "You can get drunk unless you are coming to the mosque".

Quote:
And think about this. You say the Quran was not revealed all at once. THAT is what makes this laughable. Allah 'knows all' so why not send down a verse that forbids drinking wine right from the start since allah knew that wine was from the devil. And allah also said that this abomination from Satan has benefits!!
This is where your thinking stops! A person on drugs can stop taking drugs only gradually. The same with drinking alcohol; it can be stopped by all only gradually. There was wisdom in forbidding it gradually without promoting it at any time. You are assuming that gradual prohibition is equivalent of promoting or allowing it.
As for your perceived "benefits", it wasn't "benefits" but "profit"; monetary profit in selling alcohol. Sin is greater than monetary profit.

Quote:
What probably happened is that Muhammed knew he wouldn't get many initial followers if he started out forbidding wine outright. So he did it in stages.
No. It was Allah who knew the Arabs of the time quite perfectly. Allah knew how to stop them drinking alcohol gradually.

Quote:
At any rate, you now have an excellent example of abrogation. Not that I think it will matter to you.
May be for you but certainly not for me!

Abrogation in the Qur'an is only for those dummies who can't understand the Qur'an when reading it.
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