For Muslims: Why there are Homosexuals Naturally?[/ (verses, hell, punishment)
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For those who accept the Ahadith as having divine authority, here is a video
re verse 4:24.
After 16 years of being a Muslim and Islam apologist, expert and preacher, American convert Ismaa’eel eventually leaves Islam and out on a mission to tell the truth.
I have listened to him. He either did not understand the Qur'an, particularly 4:24, or he is lying. Even I can put up a lot of videos in favor of Christianity for a time and then wipe them all and go "out on a mission to tell the truth" and say, Allahu Akbar and Ameen!
Reading only 50+ times is useless without understanding it. Reading 6-7 times is enough as its study to understand it. Understanding comes through study and not just reading it.
It is a stupid idea to imagine in a normal intellectual situation [not like a Hafiz re memorization] any one would read [by rote] a book 50 times like a tape recorder.
Btw, it is very normal and imperative for a normal believer [like YOU] to engage in bias reading of their own holy text to ensure their salvation is secured.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
You began with a single verse (4:24) and even that with just a part of it. You had claimed that the verse is about having sex with slaves. I had pointed out that the verse is about marriage. Only then the context came into discussion. In the context, the subject is marriage rather than having sex without marriage.
Then it should not be twisted to show that these verses are not about marriage but having sex outside marriage.
That is not the same as having sex with slaves outside marriage being allowed in the Qur'an.
There are elements of sex within marriage and sex without marriage in the Bible. There are elements of sex within marriage and sex without marriage in the Qur'an. There are elements of sex within marriage and sex without marriage in your posts here. There are elements of sex within marriage and sex without marriage in my posts. There are elements of sex within marriage and sex without marriage in many books. This is the same as just mentioning sex within marriage and sex without marriage. Just mentioning it does not mean both are approved in the Qur'an.
Muslims cannot have sex with slaves outside marriage or else there would be no need for the Qur'an to even mention marriage with slaves. This is where your thinking stops when you ignore mention of marriage with slaves in the Qur'an.
As for Muhammad having 13 wives, it really is ignorance about Muhammad and the situation at the time. How many women he had because of his "lust" before he married Khudijah? None. How many other wives he had at any time whilst married to Khudijah? None. His second wife was an old woman well past her sexually active age. Did he marry her for "lust"? Several of his wives were old women or widows with no protection. The only virgin he had married was Aisha. As for the lusty nature of those people around him at the time, this is why the Qur'an was revealed to curtail their immoral behavior. Even marriage with such people was forbidden through the Qur'an.
[2.221] And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His ayat to people, that they may be mindful.
[24.3] The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.
Sex outside marriage is fornication and adultery, and is forbidden to the believers.
The exception is explained, the reason slaves are in "forbidden" group rather than in "lawful" group otherwise there would be no need for them to be included with forbidden group.
Reading only 50+ times is useless without understanding it. Reading 6-7 times is enough as its study to understand it. Understanding comes through study and not just reading it.
[38.29] (It is) a Book We have revealed to you abounding in good that they may ponder over its verses, and that those endowed with understanding may be mindful.
Reading the verses fast 50+ times without pondering over them does not make you mindful. Only those endowed with understanding are mindful.
That explains why you can't understand the Qur'an even after reading it 50+ times and still not be mindful. You have yet to ponder over the verses even 6-7 times.
4:24 is all about marriage and not sex outside marriage which is fornication and adultery. Do you know punishment in the Qur'an for fornication and adultery?
Is that some kind of intelligent point? Only an idiot will see slaves in forbidden group as sex slaves ready for fornication and used as prostitutes.
[4.25] And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
How could any slave woman be chaste, not fornicating after she had been used for sex outside marriage? And why on earth the command in this verse to marry them if they could be legally kept as sex slaves without marriage? The only answer is that one can't have sex with them without marrying them. Otherwise they are forbidden to be used for sex outside marriage as that would be fornication and adultery.
This is pot calling kettle black! "Therefore you cannot separate the sex elements from marriage" does not mean you can separate sex with slaves from marriage with them just because that's how YOU want to present it.
I knew you will not understand it. You had to ponder over what I had stated and you failed to do that.
No. Definitely not!
[17.32] [color=blue]And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an indecency and an evil way.[color]
[25.68] And they who do not call upon another god with Allah and do not slay the soul, which Allah has forbidden except in the requirements of justice, and do not commit fornication and he who does this shall find a requital of sin;
Nowhere in the Qur'an fornication or adultery is allowed.
You are just assuming that sex with slaves outside marriage is "implied" in 4:24. I am quite clear that verses 4:15-25 are not allowing sex outside marriage with ANYONE. There isn't even one verse that tells the believers to have sex with slaves without marrying them. As for hadith, I know there is a lot of crap written in there by men fantasizing sex with all kind of women but they are totally wrong just as they are wrong about verses of the Qur'an being abrogated. That is because they did not understand the Qur'an and this was an easy way to assume so. There are far too many contradictions in the ahadith written by men who never lived during the time of Muhammad or even Suhabas (Companions).
An issue in the Qur'an cannot be understood properly unless ALL the verses of the Qur'an on that issue are taken into account. This is why I am absolutely certain that there is no allowance in the Qur'an for sex outside marriage. No adulterer or fornicator can marry but an adulteress or a fornicator and no adulteress or fornicator can marry but an adulterer or a fornicator. Such acts are forbidden to believers. This is the overriding law in the Qur'an (24:3 quoted above).
The exception is not about having sex with slaves but about marrying with slaves. This is why they are included in forbidden group than in lawful group. As slave of some other person (master) one is forbidden to marry her/him as one is to marry a free person.
Why SOME and not MOST? Is it rational to think about SOME but not about MOST?
Why should he marry her if 4:24 is seen as saying that he can just have sex with her without marriage? He can marry her if she is freed first. Then she will be included in "lawful" group and not in forbidden group.
Not at all! Exception is not for just one reason but for more than one reason compared to a free woman:
1. A slave is owned by her/his master. Her/his master has the right to decide what happens to the slave. That's why the exception.
2. If it is a woman, she has to be freed by the master if the master himself wants to marry her. Wisdom in it is that this will lead to freeing of a slave before the marriage. That's why the exception.
3. If the master gives permission to someone unable to marry a free woman, to marry the slave, no dowry will be needed. The master will still have right over the slave woman. This too leads to exception.
Marriage with a slave is a restricted marriage unless she is freed before her marriage. This is why she is included in the forbidden group to begin with and then marriage is possible if restrictions for prohibition are removed first. Therefore it is wrong to assume that sex with slaves is lawful when adultery and fornication are forbidden in the Qur'an for believers.
Actually, reading about sex in the Qur'an 50+ times makes one think only of the sex and not about marriage, fornication or adultery. This has been proven by your remark here about sex in Paradise. All this is amplified in someone's brain after reading the Qur'an 50+ times. It hasn't amplified in my brain because (a) I have read the Qur'an less times and pondered over it many more times. My understanding from reading and pondering over the ayat is that there would be no sex in Paradise, no children born there, and no death there. You are not thinking that far and, therefore, not understanding the Qur'an.
It's about time that these hadith books were understood to have been written by men rather than revealed from God. I reject them because they do not comply with the guidance in the Qur'an.
Muhammad's marriage with 13 or 17 wives does not prove anything about his sex drive when he had only one wife for 28 years and no slave on the side. Funny he did not have children from 15 wives with his "high sex personality"! That is more a clue of his low sex personality than his high sex personality.
Since the above discussion is centered on 4:24, I will focus on that.
My point is 4:15-25 focus on marriage.
One of the crucial element in any rule on marriage is sex, i.e. promote moral sex.
Sex outside marriage is immoral.
However 4:24 provide an exception where sex with slaves outside marriage is permissible, i.e.
4:24. [part] And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save [except] those (captives {women}) whom your right hands possess.
Note is quite ridiculous the for the following to mean
'you [male Muslims] cannot marry married women ...'
That is obvious even to an idiot.
Now this part of 4:24 is an additional point to highlight
'you [male Muslims] cannot have sex with married women EXCEPT their slave [female]'
Therefore male Muslims can have sex outside marriage with slaves [female].
I posted 4:24 in part above to highlight the critical point. Here is the full 4:24 if you insist;
4:24. And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save [except] those (captives {women}) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as [dowry] a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.
Quote:
As for Muhammad having 13 wives, it really is ignorance about Muhammad and the situation at the time. How many women he had because of his "lust" before he married Khudijah? None. How many other wives he had at any time whilst married to Khudijah? None. His second wife was an old woman well past her sexually active age. Did he marry her for "lust"? Several of his wives were old women or widows with no protection. The only virgin he had married was Aisha. As for the lusty nature of those people around him at the time, this is why the Qur'an was revealed to curtail their immoral behavior. Even marriage with such people was forbidden through the Qur'an.
Muhammad's marriage with 13 or 17 wives does not prove anything about his sex drive when he had only one wife for 28 years and no slave on the side. Funny he did not have children from 15 wives with his "high sex personality"! That is more a clue of his low sex personality than his high sex personality.
Re Khadijah,
Muhammad a poor orphan was 25 when he married Khadijah, a rich widow.
In such a situation it is obvious Khadijah was the domineering spouse and Muhammad was highly dependent on her and thus will not dare to divorce her to marry another. Who is to know if Muhammad was adulterous on the sides with other women and prostitutes?
Not having children with the other wives do not conclude he do not have a high sex drive. There are lots of possible reason why there are no children.
Historically,
"There are disagreements in Muslim tradition whether Muhammad first married Sawda or Aisha." [wiki]
The other points in supporting of Muhammad high sex drive are;
1. He can marry many more than the 4 as allowed to other Muslims.
2. He schemed to marry his daughter in law.
3. Research has shown, most of those who claimed to be god's agent has high sex drives.
In the wiki article above [and other historical reports] Muhammad did marry a slave, a captured slave and had concubine [sex outside marriage].
Marrying old women do not imply a low sex drive. A person with high sex drives will go for any xxx to put his dick in regardless of old or young.
Quote:
How could any slave woman be chaste, not fornicating after she had been used for sex outside marriage?
It is not easy to prove virginity.
Allowing sex with slaves outside marriage in 4:24 do not imply ALL slaves in history had sex with their owners.
A person who want to marry a slave can make his own 'checking' to ensure the slave is chaste or he could close an eye after all that is not a serious sin.
Quote:
Muslims cannot have sex with slaves outside marriage or else there would be no need for the Qur'an to even mention marriage with slaves. This is where your thinking stops when you ignore mention of marriage with slaves in the Qur'an.
WHO ARE YOU to decide what Allah should or should not do"
Since Allah has stated that exceptional point, Allah must have a reason for it.
If normal humans were to decide there are a lot of things Allah should not have mentioned because they are obvious.
Last edited by Continuum; 06-27-2016 at 10:10 PM..
I have listened to him. He either did not understand the Qur'an, particularly 4:24, or he is lying. Even I can put up a lot of videos in favor of Christianity for a time and then wipe them all and go "out on a mission to tell the truth" and say, Allahu Akbar and Ameen!
I mentioned this video is [ONLY] for those who accept the Ahadith as having divine authority.
It would be very stupid of anyone to invest in 16 years of one's young adult life to do that sort of plot deliberately.
The point here is truth will always prevails and it is just a matter of time.
Believers are caught within an existential terror in a very tight corner and thus has no other options to accept even the unrealistic or kill others if necessary.
Last edited by Continuum; 06-27-2016 at 10:38 PM..
[4.22-25] And marry not woman whom your fathers married, except what has already passed; this surely is indecent and hateful, and it is an evil way. Forbidden to you (to marry) are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together (in marriage), except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise. And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
The whole passage from 4:22 to 4:25 is about free women forbidden for marriage, women normally forbidden but allowed to be married under certain exceptional conditions, and free women lawful for marriage under normal conditions. There is no other way to understand this whole passage. Sex outside marriage is fornication and adultery which is not allowed in the Qur'an even in case of slaves. Period.
Btw, it is very normal and imperative for a normal believer [like YOU] to engage in bias reading of their own holy text to ensure their salvation is secured.
Reading the text in any way does not secure salvation. I don't know how you can think so.
Quote:
Since the above discussion is centered on 4:24, I will focus on that.
My point is 4:15-25 focus on marriage.
One of the crucial element in any rule on marriage is sex, i.e. promote moral sex.
Sex outside marriage is immoral.
However 4:24 provide an exception where sex with slaves outside marriage is permissible, i.e.
4:24. [part] And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save [except] those (captives {women}) whom your right hands possess.
The part as well as the whole is about marriage and not sex outside the marriage.
Quote:
Note is quite ridiculous the for the following to mean
'you [male Muslims] cannot marry married women ...'
That is obvious even to an idiot.
It is also obvious to any idiot that the verse does not say don't have sex with married women except with slaves. What if that slave woman is married to you male Muslim? How stupid your interpretation would be?
Reading the text in any way does not secure salvation. I don't know how you can think so.
A believer is always in a state of terrible [subliminal] psychological existential fears and pains thus is seeking salvation to relieve the uncertainty, pains and sufferings.
To ensure salvation with eternal life a Muslim enters into a covenant with a PERFECT all powerful Allah as expressed in the Quran within his set of psychological beliefs.
Thus to ensure salvation a believer must read the text of the Quran within his specific set of psychological beliefs. [by oneself or leveraged on a school of thought -Madhab etc.].
This is why you MUST read the Quran [regardless it is true or false with reality] within your set of psychological beliefs otherwise you faith will be shaken and will feel terrible unsecure about your salvation.
Note that thread on scientific discoveries within the Quran. Affirmation of these give the believers the assurance that their Quran is right and is from Allah which secures the salvation.
Since Allah is all powerful to enable salvation, any error on the part of Allah in the Quran will expose Allah credibility and power to grant one the salvation. Therefore regardless of reality, whatever Allah had stated in the Quran must be true even when it is obviously false in the face of evidence. The believer will twist the verse to the extreme to ensure it aligns with his own set of psychological beliefs. This is the Confirmation Bias.
Quote:
Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities.[Note 1][1]
It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way.
The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs.
People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position.
Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).
Religious beliefs are emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs.
The part as well as the whole is about marriage and not sex outside the marriage.
As I had stated the topic of marriage is generally complemented by the topic of sex [moral and immoral] which is demonstrated within 4:15-25. Note the terms 'lewdness' 'gone into' and other implications.
So within 4:15-25 there are the topic and elements of sex-within-marriage and sex-without-marriage.
4:24 [first part] highlighted the exception for sex-outside-marriage, i.e. sex with female slaves.
Quote:
It is also obvious to any idiot that the verse does not say don't have sex with married women except with slaves. What if that slave woman is married to you male Muslim? How stupid your interpretation would be?
Note,
4:24 [part] and all married women (are forbidden unto you) save [except] those (captives {women}) whom your right hands possess.
As I had stated, the topic of marriage is generally complemented by the topic of sex [within or outside marriage], it is most appropriate for the above to mean;
"4:24 and all married women ([i.e. sex-outside-marriage] are forbidden unto you) save [except] those (captives {women}) whom your right hands possess."
it would be ridiculous to phrase the meaning in your interpretation as;
"4:24 and all married women ([marriage] are forbidden unto you) save [except] those (captives {women}) whom your right hands possess."
this imply
"you [male Muslims] cannot marry married women except you cannot marry slaves"
which is a ridiculous statement.
Quote:
What if that slave woman is married to you male Muslim?
The first part of 4:24 refers to no sex with any 'married women' and that would cover female slaves who are married.
Note the reality is this interpretation of sex with slaves outside marriage is permissible had already put into practice for 1,400 years and accepted by the majority of Muslims. I agree [not accepting] their views are in accordance to the Quran's 14:24.
If you want to interpret otherwise, go ahead but who are YOU [a slave] who cannot be in any position to judge and insist the other views of 4:24 [i.e. sex with slaves is permissible outside marriage] is wrong.
The whole passage from 4:22 to 4:25 is about free women forbidden for marriage, women normally forbidden but allowed to be married under certain exceptional conditions, and free women lawful for marriage under normal conditions. There is no other way to understand this whole passage. Sex outside marriage is fornication and adultery which is not allowed in the Qur'an even in case of slaves. Period.
You are ignorant [blinded] of human nature that the topic "sex" is naturally embedded with the topic of marriage even though it is not explicit.
The sex drive is the strongest element that is active in the consideration of marriage.
The topic of marriage is more about making sex morally acceptable although sex is not explicitly talked about during the process of marriage.
In the modern era sex before marriage is common, but in the olden days [in general] the most likely thoughts that are likely to occupy the young man's mind in anticipation of marriage is sex, sex and sex because this is a natural instinct manifesting in their psyche.
Because the element of sex in humans is so strong [implicitly] and significant [implicitly] 4:24 make the exception for sex-without-marriage permissible with slaves [cheap and low class humans] especially for those with high sex drives and sex-starved soldiers.
Back to OP, while there are definitely homosexuals who are influenced by their nurturing and social environment, what is critical here is do you agree homosexuals are born naturally and there is nothing they can do about what is happening in their brain?
While it may be easier for those nurture-based homosexuals to suppress their homosexual tendencies or change, it is very difficult for the nature-based homosexuals to suppress their homosexual drives. This is because the homosexual connections [rather mis-connection] happened deep within the brain.
Therefore as concerned citizens of humanity we need to extend empathy and compassion to these nature-based homosexuals [as fellow human beings] rather than condemn them to hell or kill them.
Nature-based homosexuals do not request to be born that way and I believe most would not like to be in that state but deep down wish they could be normal heterosexual.
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