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when Abo Hurairah reported Camel Urine Hadith ( as you call it) Was abo Hurairah Honest or Liar?
Did Abo Hurairah report Camel Urine Hadith or Anas b. Malik?
How come you don't know the details of the subject that you believe in?
It is this kind of hadith that made a Saudi fill up bottles with his own urine and sold it in his shop as camel urine. That Arab did not believe in this hadith but used it to make money from other Arabs.
if he is Honest you Should believe in his Hadith and needlessly to drink Camel Urine ! I don't drink it and I don't marry more than one and ...etc. but I believe it is lawful ( do or don't do ) that depend on necessity.
That is preaching one thing and doing another. It just proves that even you don't really believe this hadith. What kind of Muslim are you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
BUT, since you don't beleive in this hadith, that means you accuse the Companion Abo Hurairah of being liar?
Why should I accuse Abo Hurairah when I don't even believe he reported this hadith?
This is the problem with some of the "mainstream Muslims" today; they accuse other Muslims falsely in their arrogance. Arrogance is trait of Shaytan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
bearing in mind that abo Hurairah reported more than 3000 Hadiths, So you should not believe in one of them ( who could you trust a liar) This is Scientific Issue
How do you know that it was Abu Hurairah who reported 3000 ahadith when you don't know who reported camel urine hadith?
You were not to believe any other hadith after the Qur'aan (45:6).
"Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination(4) It is not but a revelation revealed(5)"
Khalif, is there any exception or limitation here for the credibility of what prophet Mohammad says wither in verse or in normal speech?
You can't tell the difference between his own speech of telling Zaid to keep his wife and the delivery of a verse of the Qur'aan.
Zaid had always obeyed Allah and His messenger (commands in the verses of the Qur'aan) but did not obey Muhammad when Muhammad had told him to keep his wife. Zaid understood the difference; you do not.
I don't make mistake by giving you this name. You approach is a Sickman's one
You had called me "Sickman". Shall we call in a moderator to decide if it was right or wrong thing to do on your part?
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
Khalif, don't forget you slander the prophet's lifestyle when you talk about marrying more women and when you talk about Arab in general. the prophet was an Arab too.
Don't lie that I slandered the Prophet. Prove the slander if you are truthful Arab.
As for the Prophet marrying more than 4 women, it was you who had claimed that the Sunnah of the Prophet is his acts, saying and approval. Marrying more than 4 women is part of his acts. Therefore, your definition of "Sunnah of the Prophet" is wrong. Admit it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
Khalif , you are poor educated and you are the first poor educated one I spent such long time with him. but I believe this was necessary to show the readers of this thread your dangerous cult of denying Sunnah.
I have already proved you wrong and the readers can see you are wrong. It is Muslims like you who are giving Islam the bad name today. It is hypocrisy of Muslims like you to argue here for the Sunnah and hadith books and then not do as is in the hadith books about drinking camel urine. Why do you preach that you do not practice yourself?
What about dipping the whole of the fly in your drink? Do you comply with that advice in the hadith books?
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
Klaif, you are afflicted and affected with Christianity dogma.(why)? when you preach that one can read Quran Himself and know Islam just by reading the Quran without looking into any explanations or illustrations, You make the Quran just like the Bible. this idea is very Christian.
The Qur'aan itself proves you wrong. You insult the Qur'aan when you say that it can't be understood without some further explanations. The Qur'aan explains itself.
[16:89]...We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for Muslims.
Are you a Muslim? Do you or don't you believe the above words of Allah (SWT)?
The Christian example you gave here is perfect example that applies to you. Christians say, nobody can go to God except through Jesus. You say, Muslims can't understand the Words of Allah unless they understand the words of hadith writers first.
If you need explanations of men to understand the Qur'aan, it means you can't read and understand the Qur'aan yourself.
[2.242] Allah thus makes clear to you His ayat that you may use your intellect.
[38.29] (It is) a Book We have revealed to you blessed that they may ponder over its verses, and that those endowed with understanding may be mindful.
Only those can't understand the ayat of Allah who do not ponder over them or do not use intellect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
khalif, You have not answer either of my question? you said lots of things except the direct essence answer. and this is enough for you if you are sane.
I have answered every question of your; you were unable to understand my answers. You need further explanations from someone to understand my answers. The same thing happens to those who can't understand the Qur'aan by rely too much on ahadith books. This is what the messenger is going to say about the hadith pushers on the Day of Judgment:
[25.30] And the messenger said: O my Lord! Surely my nation (Arab?) have treated this Qur'an as a forsaken thing.
Yes, that's what you have done. You have forsaken the Qur'aan for hadith books.
How do we know of it is to Abo Hab if they do not go back to other Islamic books
The most important reasons to get off ( asbab -al -nezol)
And also why this curse on Abu -lahab
What does this poor guy did to deserve this curse
It is the message that your destination include these curses
-----------------
surat -al- al -nor -
Those who came Balivk League of you do not count him evil to you, but is good for you, each one of them gained from sin and who took them to him magnify a great punishment (
--------------
How do you understand this verse
And how to explain it to people
-----------------------
So the Koran does not explain himself
But you need to support other interpretations of verses of the Koran so you can understand that
There are many examples of this
In any book there is a always a central message and the various themes [topic] and sub-themes support the central message in different degrees of importance.
In the Quran one of the most important theme [topic] for a Muslim is "How to Get to Paradise." I would rate this as 99/100 or 99% important [for a Muslim, not me].
There are other verses which are 80% important, 60%, 50%, 30%, 20% 10% and some 1% important.
The Quran explain itself, the general understanding this refer to the critical points that are at least above 50% importance to the Muslim.
The message in Chapter 111 is about the "kafir" and Fire [Naran] in Hell. If one disbelieved, then one will go to hell. This chapter 111 would carry only 10% importance as the message of the Chapter is repeated hundreds of times all over the Quran. As for who was Abu Lahab, that is only 1% important. Knowing who Abu Lahab was and the details he was cursed is not critical to the Quran and its central message for any Muslim.
Even it is 1% importance, I have shown we can infer [guess] why Abu Lahab was highlighted for mentioned and condemned.
It is the same for all the other verses in the Quran one must consider its degree [DRJ; darajātin] of importance and focus on the critical verses and points.
surat -al- al -nor -??
Since your translation is always a problem, suggest your quote the Chapter Number and Verse Number as an easier rereference.
I believe a good reader must understand the central message and various sub-topic and understand their respective importance to the central message.
There hundreds of things that are important for a Muslim to understand from the Quran to gain a good report card on Judgment Day. Any extra details about Abu Lahab will not earn them any extra marks.
Last edited by Continuum; 03-19-2017 at 09:17 PM..
the Judge should know the basics of the case, but you know nothing about the right Islam. you read and wrote lot (I know this) but what you have learnt or read shows to me that you were depending on orientalists and Shiites writing or works.
My judgment is based on reference from God's words [KLM: kalam QWL: Qawlan;] which is the Right Islam.
5:3 [O ye Muslims] ... ... This day have I [Allah] Perfected [KML: akmaltu] your religion [DYN: deenakum] for you [Muslims] and completed [TMM: tamma] My favour unto you [SLM: Muslims], and have chosen for you [Muslims] as religion [DYN: deenan] AL-ISLAM. [SLM: al-islama]
Allah will not appear to judge whether you or I am right.
It is up to you to prove me wrong.
So far you have not proven me wrong [convincingly] in my interpretation of the verses from the Quran.
Your jumping to conclusion judgment about my knowledge of Islam is wrong. You can see the history of my progress from my posts since I started in this forum. When I started I was relying only on Pickthall, then I extended my reliance to more than 50 English translations. Thanks to Woodrow Li whose counters spurred me to study Arabic, then Quranic-Arabic Grammar. Then my volleys with Khalif pushed me into greater depths and the wider scope of the Quran and Islam. You will notice my advancement is on a very steep progressive trend on an objective basis [not tainted with emotional and confirmation bias] and will continue to progress.
I don't depend on orientalists and Shiites writing or works ONLY, I depend on all sources [in English] including Sunni and whatever knowledge that is relevant to my project. By now I have read more than hundred books and >100 of articles related to Islam from all sources.
I would be pleased [I am a knowledge crazy person] if you can recommend me the best books from the Sunni scholars, I will definitely read them [if I had not yet read them.]
Beside the need to know basic Arabic to understand the Quran, another point I have learned is one cannot take the Quran lightly and superficially. Relatively, the Quran is a thin book with 6,236 verses but it is VERY compact, dense, and intricate which I believe is a weakness [in terms of communication] and thus beyond the reach of the majority.
But the contents [dense and compact, mixed-up] within the Quran and more than sufficient to represent all of Allah's intended message for Muslims.
Adding to the very denseness of the verses, the Quran do not present its message in a proper arrangement of its message in terms of central theme with its relevant sub-themes like most good books should be.
So far I have unpacked the very dense Quran into more than 1000 themes and sub-themes, and I believe I have a very reasonable grasp of the central message [ILM, HKM, RSL] of the Quran.
Long ago, the majority has to depend on the ulama and scholars to expound the already-expounded-Quran further for their salvation. This is how the Ahadith [invented by ulama and scholars] came about. To cater for the majority the ulama has to dilute the purer spirituality of the Quran. But due to various reasons some ulama exploited the situation and contaminated the message in the Ahadiths with greater evil elements.
In this advancing age [resources are aplenty], I believe the average Muslim should loosen their dependence on the scholars and 'fast-food' [McDonald] type of knowledge from the Ahadith and venture on their own to learn the purer knowledge from the Quran directly [detailed, complete and perfected].
(nb: the Quran by itself still has its share of evil laden elements but not as crude as camel urine, adult-breastfeeding, and other yucky stuffs)
Did Abo Hurairah report Camel Urine Hadith or Anas b. Malik?
How come you don't know the details of the subject that you believe in?
no matter who was the narrator, the matter is being a companion who narrate speech of the prophet and meomorize Quran too, you accept the Quran but decline when it comes to the speech of the prophet. let me paraphrase for you " if a companion narrates or report Quran > that is correct and he is honest BUT if he narrates Sunnah or Prophet speech, comments, directions...etc then you don't accept it and and that is a lie.
Abo Hurayrah, narrated the fly's Hadith! now all you can say is to suspect that abo Hurairah did not narrate this story? but Millions of Muslim (I am included) believe that Abo Hurairah narrated it and believe in it.
we believe Abo Hurairah in everything ( Quran or Sunnah) but you are choosy personality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
That is preaching one thing and doing another. It just proves that even you don't really believe this hadith. What kind of Muslim are you?
I made myself clear I believe and I am a Muslim who follow the Quran and Sunnah together not like you following my taste and wishes.
I am a Muslim who lives in Arabia and speak the tongue of the Quran, I am a Muslim who defend the Islamic Sharia even if it includes stories that seem unacceptable from Christians, Jews, Hindus or Hypocrites Muslim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
Why should I accuse Abo Hurairah when I don't even believe he reported this hadith?
This is the problem with some of the "mainstream Muslims" today; they accuse other Muslims falsely in their arrogance. Arrogance is trait of Shaytan.
Who Are You to Judge this Hadith? a scholar ? NO, you are just pedantic with very sick approach and can not answer a direct Question.You did not tell me/us how could you trust that the Quran is Correct since you suspect the means (Companions, Narrators) by which Quran reached to us in 21th century! if you answer this question then the problem is solved> I know you won't do it without being choosy and follow unscientific approach ( depending on companions here But neglects them in reporting Sunnah?
Give it a try Klaif, I am waiting for you contradictory loose answer we are on page 8 now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
How do you know that it was Abu Hurairah who reported 3000 ahadith when you don't know who reported camel urine hadith?
My answer will be as yours on Quran Reporting authenticity! how could you know that those who copied Quran did not forget smth or alter smth ... etc. I make it IN BOLD AND GREEN 4U.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
You were not to believe any other hadith after the Qur'aan (45:6).
[/quote]
why? Allah in another place in the Holy Quran told us that "There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often." Chapter 33, Verse 21
Pattern means Example or Sunnah or in his lifestyle ? I know this is painful to you Klaif:/ coz you need tough brainwashing by following Quran Collectively not Selectively
Klaif, the is the last Notification
why did not answer my last questions ? I will quote it for you in the next post
Thank God, I memorize chapter 1,2,3 and 4 ( from the opening Chapter to Women Chapter) that is around 100 pages.
and I mesmerized from the Spider Chapter to the end of the Quran ( that is around 200 pages)
in total , I memorize half of the Quran and I got a proofreader certificate in Arabic Language as well.
Memory and understanding are totally two different things. With computers and mobile phones memory skills is a redundant thing especially on complex issues involving the Quran.
Quote:
Allah Almighty Said in the Holy Quran, Chapter 2 verse 129 "Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from themselves who will recite to them Your verses and teach them the Book and wisdom and purify them. Indeed, You are the Exalted in Might, the Wise."
Do you know what is the intended meaning by wisdom here?
2:129. Our Lord! And raise up in their [our children] midst a messenger from among them who shall recite [TLW: yatlū] unto them Thy revelations, and shall instruct [3LM: yu'allimu] them in the Scripture and in wisdom [HKM: ḥik'mat] and shall make them [our children] grow [ZKW: wayuzakkīhim; make pure]. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Mighty, Wise.
The leading and critical point in 2:129 is 'recitation of the revelations [WHY; wahy]'.
And the revelations stated very clearly the duty of Muhammad is ONLY to convey, warn, remind and not to add nor guide based on his own 53:4-5 but to rely on the revelations only. This is the CRITICAL principle.
Therefore whatever the 'wisdom' [HKM; hikmat] referred to in 2:129 it must be restricted within the ambit of the Quran, i.e.
10:1 Alif. Lam. Ra. These are verses of the wise [HKM: l-ḥakīmi] Scripture.
31:2. These are revelations of the wise [HKM: l-ḥakīmi] Scripture, {quoted by Khalif}
36:2. By the wise [HKM: l-ḥakīmi] Qur’an,
Quote:
Allah said in the Holy Quran, Chapter 53
"Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination(4) It is not but a revelation revealed(5)"
53:3-4 do not refer to whatever that is spoken by Muhammad at all times but refer to the specific revelations [within the Quran] and only those via Gabriel Muhammad spoke;
5:4. It is naught save an inspiration [WHY; wahyun] that is inspired [WHY; yūḥā; revealed]
Note reference to Allah and Gabriel in 53:5-10.
Therefore whatever that is spoken by Muhammad [as claimed in Ahadith] and is not done via Gabriel nor within the ambit of the revelations revealed [Quran] do not carry any divine authority at all, e.g. camel urine, sucking breasts, fly in soup, etc.
why? Allah in another place in the Holy Quran told us that "There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often." Chapter 33, Verse 21
Pattern means Example or Sunnah or in his lifestyle ? I know this is painful to you Klaif:/ coz you need tough brainwashing by following Quran Collectively not Selectively
[ASW: us'watun;] is best interpreted as an exemplar or model;
The reality is there is a need to reconcile the following points;
1. Muhammad is a model and exemplar, 33:21
2. Muhammad's divine duty is only to convey, remind, warn with the Quran. 34:28 and many similar verses.
It is your duty that you must take both of Allah's point into consideration.
You cannot insist on 33:21 and ignore the other.
In the above case, the Quran is the limiting factor and thus Muhammad is recommended as a model or exemplar is only restricted to whatever comply with the Quran.
The other point I highlighted is Muhammad as a human being is also vulnerable to sins. Therefore a Muslim cannot follow 100% of what Muhammad said and did.
In any book there is a always a central message and the various themes [topic] and sub-themes support the central message in different degrees of importance.
In the Quran one of the most important theme [topic] for a Muslim is "How to Get to Paradise." I would rate this as 99/100 or 99% important [for a Muslim, not me].
There are other verses which are 80% important, 60%, 50%, 30%, 20% 10% and some 1% important.
The Quran explain itself, the general understanding this refer to the critical points that are at least above 50% importance to the Muslim.
The message in Chapter 111 is about the "kafir" and Fire [Naran] in Hell. If one disbelieved, then one will go to hell. This chapter 111 would carry only 10% importance as the message of the Chapter is repeated hundreds of times all over the Quran. As for who was Abu Lahab, that is only 1% important. Knowing who Abu Lahab was and the details he was cursed is not critical to the Quran and its central message for any Muslim.
Even it is 1% importance, I have shown we can infer [guess] why Abu Lahab was highlighted for mentioned and condemned.
It is the same for all the other verses in the Quran one must consider its degree [DRJ; darajātin] of importance and focus on the critical verses and points.
surat -al- al -nor -??
Since your translation is always a problem, suggest your quote the Chapter Number and Verse Number as an easier rereference.
I believe a good reader must understand the central message and various sub-topic and understand their respective importance to the central message.
There hundreds of things that are important for a Muslim to understand from the Quran to gain a good report card on Judgment Day. Any extra details about Abu Lahab will not earn them any extra marks.
Surat Al-Nur verse 11
Are you able to explain it
--------------------------
Without reference to other Islamic books
Such as ( asbab -al-nzol )
--------------------------
You say the central message to the Koran
The central message in the Koran is faith in God with His Messenger
But the paradise
Do you believe in the
As it contained in the Koran
------
The central message in the Koran is to believe in Allah and His Messenger
Do you think that Muhammad is the Messenger of God really
" can you give me the Sunnah Synonym from this translation "?
"There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often." Surat Al -Ahzab , verse 21.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
This is the revelation of the Qur'aan. Where is your second revelation called "Sunnah"? Have you lost it that now you are relying on only the Qur'aan to find "Sunnah" in it?
The verse you mentioned here is not Sunnah Synonym but Iman Synonym.
Destructive Comment: How could you translate Wisdom to Iman while you don't speak one damn word in Arabic? what makes you illustrate here and forbid others from illustrating ( we adopt and use illustration but you Claimed you understand the very clear Quran yourself? You need Help Man, believe me! you Contradict yourself
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
Khalif the pedantic, have you ever thought of this verse " And when there comes to them information about [public] security or fear, they spread it around. But if they had referred it back to the Messenger or to those of authority among them, then the ones who [can] draw correct conclusions from it would have known about it. And if not for the favor of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have followed Satan, except for a few." Chapter 4, verse 83
Are you Khalif one of those of authority or ability to draw correct conclusions? NAY
Have you ever quote one of the credited Muslim explanators like ibn katheer or Tabari or Qurtobi? OR you just explain by yourself?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
Now you are looking for straws to hang on to as you have failed to find "Sunnah of the Prophet" mentioned in the Qur'aan.
The verse 4:83 has nothing to do with the Sunnah of the Prophet but is about rumors of attack on Muslims. Instead of spreading them among the people, they should have informed the Messenger or those in charge at the time to investigate the rumor.
Another final Comment: Khalif, Godness Is this an acceptable answer ( Khalif, you don't stick to the verse ) you quote anther verse and subjected it for you own loose resounding argument! Don't forget there are thousand prominent explanators who disagree with you! why do you explaine verses freely and unscientificly? bearing in minde you dealt with translations of verses ( not the actual texts in their native language).
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
Khalif, answer this question if you ever could ? Why 99.9% of Muslims refer to Explanatory Books? Do you think that they are all stupid and you and your Sunnah Deniers are smart?
Do not Forget to Answer this Question?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
That question makes about 19.9% of Arabs unable to understand the Qur'aan even though it is in Arabic language. You can say that about 80% of Muslims who are not Arabs but you said 99.9% of Muslims. The other 19.9% must be Arabs who can't understand the Qur'aan even though it is in Arabic.
final comment: that makes you non-Arab worse in this aspect? we use the explanations done by men who were contemporary to Quran revelation. ( those among companions who used to explain to others were more intelligent or skillful in this field or were more stick to the prophet (PBUH) than others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
Khalif, I would like to know your opinion on this matter ( How Could you refer to the Messenger of Allah nowadays?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
The same way as I refer to Allah. I refer to Him the same way as I refer to him; through the Qur'aan. You refer to Bukhari and Muslim when you have to refer to the messenger.
..
.. the same way? what is the same way ( Quran?), Zero Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
the same Question khalif still, why they don't resort to their own understanding of Quran everyone on his own?
..
..
.. > Khalif DID NOT ANSWER<
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
Khalif, You did not answer my last questions directly or indirectly and take this question and add it to the unanswerd ones ( how could you be so sure that the Holy Quran is correct without change or in the original shape while the Quran reached to this generation by same men whom you can not trust?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
The Qur'aan verses were written down immediately they were revealed and memorized from the outset. That's why every hafiz in the world could and still can confirm the authenticity of the Qur'aan in terms of its text since it was first compiled. Otherwise, there would have been differences in the memory of these people today.
I have already answered the question when I described in my own way as to how the text of the Qur'aan has been preserved.
(1) Text of the hadith was never created at the same time as the Qur'aan was revealed and preserved. (X)
(2) Hadith books were not created for about 200 years after the Qur'aan. that is correct for Bukhari's & Muslim's but it is (X) for Ali bin abi Talib booklet and ibn Omer's one for the put it down directly from the mouth of the prophet when they were sitting with Him
(3) Isnad of the Qur'aan runs into millions. This is not the case in case of hadith books.(X) Shame on You!
(4) In many cases there are 2 versions of matn of the same hadith even in the so-called authentic hadith books. Which one is the authentic? (doesn't mean there is Contradiction! there is an independent branches deal with what looks contradictory but you can't learn as much as you can copy paste)
(5) According to the Qur'aan, we were not to believe any other hadith after The Hadith (Ayat of Allah). (X) imitating prophet and his companions won't harm you coz they eventually had not worked against this verse.
(6) Ahadith or "Sunnah of the Prophet" is not the second revelation alongside the revelation of the Qur'aan.(X) Millions of Muslims DISAGREE with you ( I am included) and this is the reason for this boring posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
Did you hear about Ali bin Abi Talib message or booklet?
Did you hear about Abdullah bin Omer booklet?
you are either ignorant or liar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
I am neither ignorant nor liar. So stop insulting me in this forum.
ough, what kind of answer is this Klaifo
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
Do you know what is the intended meaning by wisdom here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
[31.2] These are verses of the Book of Wisdom
[31.3] A guidance and a mercy for the doers of goodness,It is the Qur'aan that is the Book of Wisdom; not your imaginary book of sunnah.
Verse + Verse= 2 Verses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
Khalif, is there any exception or limitation here for the credibility of what prophet Mohammad says wither in verse or in normal speech?
Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned
Allah said in the Holy Quran, Chapter 53
"Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination(4) It is not but a revelation revealed(5)"
Khalif, is there any exception or limitation here for the credibility of what prophet Mohammad says wither in verse or in normal speech?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
You can't tell the difference between his own speech of telling Zaid to keep his wife and the delivery of a verse of the Qur'aan.
Zaid had always obeyed Allah and His messenger (commands in the verses of the Qur'aan) but did not obey Muhammad when Muhammad had told him to keep his wife. Zaid understood the difference; you do not.
Final Comment: this was not my question, I ASKED about the limitation of this Verse? OR you could not find another (VERSE)?
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