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How do you reconcile the fact that Jesus kept calling God his "father"?
Read Matthew 5. God is symbolic father to all; not literal or biological.
Quote:
Originally Posted by let455_
In the Quran Allah says he is a father to no one, not the Jews, not the Christians, not Jesus, not mankind and the closest relationship a person can have to Allah is his slave.
God is not actual father to his slaves. He has no wife either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by let455_
It's either one of two things - Either Jesus really did go around claiming that God was his father which means he didn't preach anything near to islamic theology or the "father" statements from Jesus in the gospels were added in to create a narrative.
Jesus had no father. If Jesus was God's son then why could Mary not be God's wife?
There is difference in literal father and symbolic father.
As you noticed, I was a bit ahead of you, to offer "god is perfect, it is people who messed it up" approach.
You followed it.
Yet, what you are bypassing is my statement that, creation is mirror of creator.
I had to bypass it for a later time.
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Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Creation, that can or may go astray, is not perfect creation. It is defective.
I can’t agree with that if such a creation can and does serve the purpose it was created for.
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Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Hence, its creator did not do quite a fine job, creating it. It is - flawed. Now, logically, and I am very logical person, flawed creation points towards flawed creator.
No point in looking at only one side of the coin!
It is logic of a (self-proclaimed) flawed creation.
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Originally Posted by ukrkoz
This is why I mentioned Gnostics. Gnostics do not quite believed, what you described, in respect to creator.
I don’t expect them either unless they are believers (momineen).
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Originally Posted by ukrkoz
They did not believe that, as is, world was created by a perfect deity.
But the believers (momineen) do. And I am one of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
It was and, should I consent to creation path, I'll tend to agree with them, was created by a lesser deity, a flawed one, resulting in flawed creation. A demiurg. Not The Perfect One.
There is no logic in believing that a perfect God is unable to create something that is not perfect. That is strange logic in saying that Perfect God can create only Perfect Gods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Will you agree that, per its essence, a perfect being can ONLY "make" something that is perfect?
No. I can’t agree with that. To believe so would mean that I believe perfect God is unable to make something imperfect. It is limiting God’s ability.
Because you are limiting the perfect Creator’s ability when claiming yourself to be his flawed creation, I had to wait a little. How can a flawed creation pass a judgement on perfect Creator?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
As, nothing else can be "made" just by the nature of that being being perfect. Or, if the product is not perfect then, its maker is not perfect either. Again, by its fruit do we recognize the tree.
Which fruit have you been tasting to judge the tree? Can you even see all the fruits of that tree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Even should you state that, originally, Adam was created perfect (right) - sheer ease at which is went against his creator will points towards his basic inability to follow a simplest ever order.
This is where you failed to see both sides of the coin. Adam had the ability given to him by the Creator not to go against the Will of his Creator. He had the ability to follow his Creator’s order. Your point may be valid only if Adam did not have the ability to obey the Creator’s order but the Creator still expected him to obey the order.
Your point is lopsided. It ignores the ability to obey given to Adam by his Creator. This mistake, in this forum, is made because you had ignored my explanation of human soul being created perfect by the Creator at the beginning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
By far, he is not a perfect being and, thereafter, it all went into shambles, no matter how wishful opposite thinking is. Excluding some rare cases, of course.
Did the Creator make mistake with the “rare cases”?
Mistake also with the sun, the moon, time and yearly cycles?
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Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Neither his woman was perfect, neither were his children. Neither generations to follow.
How can they then judge the Creator perfectly if they are imperfect?
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Originally Posted by ukrkoz
OT is one big bloodbath, to be honest. So in its root, there was nothing perfect in humanity. I tis flawed attempt. With excuse of "we messed it up" to not point at you know who.
In that case, judgement of Creator by a flawed creation would also be flawed. Using your own logic of course!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
We will really get into semantics next, but, please, bear with me.:
G1:
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
G2:
Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Again, please, bear with me. I am posting based on OT being infallible word of god premise. Each word is exactly as god wishes it to be.
First, you have US or plural, reference. Us, gods.
Next, you have single god reference.
Next, you have creation in 2 aspects - image AND likeness. Thus, creation appears to be as its template AND
like·ness
/ˈlīknəs/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: likeness; plural noun: likenesses
the fact or quality of being alike
Read - man and woman were CREATED, looking like god and being like creator in their qualities.
By quoting from the OT, for a bit I thought that you were on to a point. Unfortunately, right at the end, you gave it flawed interpretation. “looking like God” and “their qualities”. Despite my explanation at a length regarding attributes of God, you went somewhere else. I certainly don’t believe that I am “looking like God” or I have “qualities” that God has.
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Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Well, you saw G2 quote. MADE, inferior material.
Man is not just “material”, it has a soul (nafs in Arabic) and is living because of Spirit (Ruh in Arabic). And is a superior earthly creation than all the other earthly created beings. God made him Khalifah on earth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Also, and I researched that and, my Hebrew is nowhere good to make any judgement yet, there is "God" and then, there is "Lord God'. Why are there two gods referenced to? Well, aurely, I am really getting into the nit and grit of it. Stickler. Can't help.
I hope you are not doing this deliberately.
It is the same God (not two). “God the Creator” doesn’t mean God is different from the Creator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
See, here's my take on this. The FIRST creation was perfect indeed. In image and in likeness. What happened to them - we do not know. The 2nd "make" was flawed and, from the very beginning, was not even made in likeness.
In that case, you need to study the creation story in Genesis a bit deeper than merely bit at a time. For your information, creation story in the Qur’an is not exactly, word by word, as in Genesis. Read also Matthew 5 to understand a bit more as to what is meant by “likeness” or be like the father in heaven. If you are still short, read about 99 names (attributes) of God/Allah. Please don’t regard them 99 gods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Also, bear with me on something else. A "living being" does not necessarily describe a SELF CONSCIOUS being. I hope, you see the difference between a living being (ameba, fish, snake, gorilla, tree, whatever) and self conscious being.
What do you mean? Which self conscious being are you referring to?
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Originally Posted by ukrkoz
MOF, you can go to pretty much any SNF and observe a living tenant - that has no consciousness left in him. Vegetative state. Yet, living being.
Two of us haven’t reached that state yet.
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Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Dear Khalif, sorry, I am dragging you into all this.
Really?
I hope I haven’t dragged you into this forum. Please keep in mind that this is Islam forum and you have decided to take part in it. So please bear in mind that despite mentioning OT or God of Christians and of Jewish people, it’s only a matter of time when we are told to talk about Islam. I hope your knowledge of the Qur’an is just as good as the knowledge of the Bible is..
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Originally Posted by ukrkoz
By no means am I trying to shake foundations of your faith. I am very respectful of them.
I know you are not. Even if you were, it would be a waste of your precious time and strength.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Simply put, "stuff" either makes sense, or it does not. Under scrutiny of basic logic - it does not.
It will never make sense with basic logic. It is impossible to understand anything about the (unseen) spiritual world using logic of a flawed and low material.
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Originally Posted by ukrkoz
As of the one and only god in OT and Bible - suite yourself. Take a pick
No problem.
To understand more about Christian God, you ask Jesus and read what he said in Mark 12:29.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Far I know, Holy Q'Ran references multiple gods either. I mean - I know it, it was discussed here not so long ago.
That’s one point you will not go far with in Islam and the Qur’an.
[112.1] Say: He, Allah, is One.
[112.2] Allah is He on Whom all depend.
[112.3] He begets not, nor is He begotten.
[112.4] And none is like Him.
I am not like God/Allah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
With due respect, I do not believe, it is as simple, as one wishes to choose and, gods were many and with various abilities to create.....
There can be only One God. There is no other logical option. This universe has been working for millenia because there is only One God.
I pondered over this thread and, out of respect to you and your faith, I decided to part with it.
I do not wish to stir your spiritual well-being with my provocative theses.
Best regards, Friend
لتكن ايامك سلمية ومباركة
Dear ukrkoz,
We hadn't even started talking about Islam yet.
I don't mind these provocative theses. It gives me chance to see another view.
I saw a family friend in Bahawalpur (Pakistan) once and we began talking about Islam and beard in Islam. He said it is compulsory. I said no. He didn't like my view.
I came back here and decided to explain my view in full. I ended up writing well over 25,000 words.
As I have studied the Qur'an in full, I included many references from the Qur'an.
I went to see him again 2 years ago but he never mentioned anything about beard in Islam.
To be honest, at some point, I became internally uncomfortable with continuing. Not because I ran out of theses but, because I feel, you are honestly person of faith and, I am not comfortable disturbing that. And if my conscience tells me something, I tend to listen to it.
It's respect to you and your spirituality.
No need to disturb it.
To be honest, at some point, I became internally uncomfortable with continuing. Not because I ran out of theses but, because I feel, you are honestly person of faith and, I am not comfortable disturbing that.
Thank you for being honest. I notice a good person in your statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
And if my conscience tells me something, I tend to listen to it.
Another sign that you are a good human being.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
It's respect to you and your spirituality.
No need to disturb it.
Disturbing is fine. Attacking it without justification is not fine. My faith can be questioned. Personally, it is not a blind faith without any reason. It is mainly about something unseen (spiritual) than about things that can be seen and proved scientifically.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Be well Friend, on your Great Path.
I call it right path or straight path. This is based on my learning from the Qur'an that the creation of heavens and earth, and of human beings, wasn't an accident out of nothing nor these were created by nothing. And all this wasn't created in vain or without any purpose.
And my path doesn't involve just Islam but humanity too. Indeed without humanity one cannot be a good Muslim.
Have a nice time, my friend. Be safe and keep being a good human.
Spirituality and humanity are interlocked. One will not be humane without being spiritual and being spiritual inadvertently makes one humane.
Paths are many, final destination is same.
Yes, I agree with all that. And each single element of your statement here can be reconciled with the teachings of the Qur'an (Islam).
Man is not just material body but it is also a soul. And he is a living soul because of spirit. Without spirit, it would be far away from spirituality. Many people won't understand it because they can't see spirit in them. They are too engrossed in their material world. The Qur'an is a guide for me about the spiritual world, the world I can't see at the moment.
As for paths and destination, again, there are three kind of paths. Straight, long/winding and wrong one. Even in term of straight one, one can either walk, ride a bicycle or ride a donkey. The path is the shariah. A shariah for one group of people, a shariah for another group of people and so on, leading to the same destination.
This is where Jewish people, Christian people and Muslim people are on their respective paths as if in a race to get to the same destination.
[2.148] And every one has a direction to which he should turn, therefore hasten to (do) good works; wherever you are, Allah will bring you all together; surely Allah has power over all things.
[3.114] They believe in Allah and the last day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and they strive with one another in hastening to good deeds, and those are among the good.
[5.48] And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed.
So I don't think I am a better person just because I regard myself a Muslim but my aim, as a human, is to do good to others and help sustain life on this earth (this is why I do a lot of gardening too to help the environment) as if I am in a race to do so with other humans.
The above verses also indicate One God of all three groups of people. That God is making clear why He gave different people different acts of devotion but the same destination to aim for.
The Jews invented the god, Granted they got most info from the Summarians,
But it is theirs, all the early prophets are theirs.
they have the patient on it.
The Christians stole the God, added more Gods to it,
Changed the rules, ... and turned on the Jews..
Then the Muslims stole the God,
Eliminated the Christian Gods.
Modifies all the stories,
turned all the characters into Muslims, at a time when Muslims did not exist.
Added their own prophet.
changed the rules again,
And turned on the Jews and Christians.
Now God is either a wishy/washy schizophrenic, who simply cannot make up his mind,
Or they are different Gods .
And "interpretation' is a childish excuse.
"manipulation" is a better definition.
Modified to manipulate the masses.
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