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Another thing. Judging from these messages - there are apparently places between the Landing and the Stadium we're never been to. Perhaps we'll have to try a couple one night when we're downtown (and it doesn't get dark at 5:30 and isn't freezing - we're talking next spring/summer). Will ask for recommendations in advance. Robyn
This is a dream list Robyn; I know it is wishful thinking right now. I also happen to know exactly what it takes to pull in most of these retailers (real estate is kind of my thing after all). I would never say never, though. I am thinking along the lines of Baltimore Inner Harbor or Kansas City Power and Light District. Both of those two "entities" have a similar mix of retail in a similar setting.
What's more realistic for the short term is art gallery space (there now), farmer's market space (there on Fridays), a few touristy restaurants (American Cafe, Hooters, etc), and a few bars/clubs (Twisted just left, but I do believe Maverick's is still there).
Legal Seafood is usually a "downtown" establishment. If Jax really really does a good job picking the ball up and making downtown into something, I could see a Fogo de Chao there in the long long term. Fogo prefers downtown locations with high traffic and a steady stream of high income travelers and residents, and is often the "most successful" restaurant by gross revenues in the metros it locates in. Fire de Brazil is a little cheaper and could come sooner, though.
Also, book stores are dying a slow death, but big changes are coming. Borders is trying to acquire the larger B&N, and both are overextended in number of locations. Urban locations tend to do a lot better because for whatever reason people living in more urban environments frequent the stores more and spend more money on books. I'm at the Georgia Tech B&N (in an urban, walkable, mixed use environment surrounded by other stores and restaurants) at least once a week and I have probably spent a couple grand there over 4 years. Chamblin's is downtown and is doing really well, actually.
I had never heard of Fogo de Chao but looked it up. It seems like a workable middle market concept (the carving meat thing seems like a hot trend now). What about Tu Tu Tango? This actually started as a single location in a place I used to live (Coconut Grove) - but seems to be popular in tourist areas like Orlando.
I love Legal Seafoods. Its first store opened when I lived in Cambridge - and I used to eat there (when I had the money). But I think the price point is kind of high for most of JAX - and seafood is generally something that appeals to older - not younger - people. Which is why the place in Boca does great. Robyn
I agree that $10 is pretty cheap for covered, event parking in major downtowns with stuff going on and limited space. Jacksonville isn't quite there yet, and people can't get to downtown via train to avoid the parking mess. We can get there by boat, though. I think it's great that there is actually incentive to bring one's boat downtown, and I know I have gone many many many times by boat. My parents used to ride the Haskell's Huckins yacht to the Jaguars games, and thus avoided a parking mess and the tailgate was a long, slow cruise on a captained yacht with cocktails and food.
The docks are part of the Riverwalk, which is city-owned and maintained via funds from us, the taxpayer. The Riverwalk is a treasure that is totally under-utilized. The Landing owners, Rouse (prior to Sleiman), negotiated with the city to have docks there because they knew it would bring more people to their property. CSX, obviously, would not want docks in front of their building and has fought pretty hard not to have the docks there and it even fought not to have the Riverwalk pass by.
Interesting tidbit, a new floating dock is being put in right now for next year's Riverside Art Market season starts after the coldest of the winter is over. There is one last Saturday market this year (this Saturday), and next year you will be able to arrive by RiverTaxi or take your boat there. This dock is actually in front of Fidelity's Campus, and I believe the city is taking on all liability as part of the negotiations with FNF to locate the dock there.
Hopefully eventually the Riverwalk will wrap all the way around to Memorial Park in Riverside, but the Cummer is an obstacle because it would have to mitigate the potential for people to jump fence into their property/gardens (and they don't want an ugly fence blocking their view of the river). When Memorial Park was designed, the Olmsted Brothers along with Roy Benjamin, the architect of the Florida Theater, wanted a dock there, but Ninah Cummer blocked that from happening in the early 20s.
I grew up in a boating family - although I never caught the "bug". And my general experience in Florida since 1971 (I started on boats in New Jersey in the 1960's) has been that although there is some very high class responsible boating (which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the size or price of one's boat) - a lot of it is low class - and a pestilence. People who don't obey "no wake zones" or Manatee zones. People who dump their untreated sewage into the waterways. People who boat when drunk. People who don't obey fish and game laws. And - most importantly - people who won't pay beans for boating resources - so taxpayers wind up paying the bills. We live in some difficult economic times these days. Boating is a luxury. And I think those who want to engage in it should pay for it themselves - not impose their costs on taxpayers.
I mean - would anyone have a problem charging a boat owner the same amount that someone pays to park his car downtown? You're talking maybe $10-15 (and there probably should be scaled rates for smaller and larger boats - the guy with the 15 foot bass boat shouldn't pay the same as the guy with the 60 foot yacht). Robyn
I had never heard of Fogo de Chao but looked it up. It seems like a workable middle market concept (the carving meat thing seems like a hot trend now). What about Tu Tu Tango? This actually started as a single location in a place I used to live (Coconut Grove) - but seems to be popular in tourist areas like Orlando.
I love Legal Seafoods. Its first store opened when I lived in Cambridge - and I used to eat there (when I had the money). But I think the price point is kind of high for most of JAX - and seafood is generally something that appeals to older - not younger - people. Which is why the place in Boca does great. Robyn
I think Jax has a few Brazilian steakhouses. Probably not on the same level as Fogo. Man...I no longer like to stuff myself the way I did when I was younger, but this is one thing I'd definitely be willing to do again. Yumm
Also love Legal Seafoods, haha. But maybe more because of memories than the food itself.
My Uncle had a ski boat that I would go on sometimes. My wife's family were definitely boaters having two small ski boats and a cottage on a local lake in Mich. I didn't get the "bug" until I met my wife. Robyn, there are terrible boaters out there just as there are terrible drivers (cars) out there. We don't stay off of the water and streets/freeways because of them......right? As far as "tough economic time"......I really wouldn't say that! Plenty of people spending money this Christmas and Red Lobster and Longhorn restaurants sure aren't having a problem (parking lots pretty full most of the time). People still have money to see the Jags play and seen the Rocketts this month. And, by the way, boaters ARE taxpayers. Boating can be a luxury, depending on the size of boat bought and cost. We paid $10k for our boat and it's a 1992. Just look at what a new boat costs and some people have no problem at all buying a new boat.
When something is FREE, most people hate/don't want to see a charge put on it due to whatever. Like anything else, I really don't expect anybody who hasn't got the "bug" for something to understand people who have the "bug" for something......when it comes to charging for something that is free.
I still say, if people want a real "lively" downtown area, they need to live in Las Vegas, New York or somewhere like that. Another way to look at it is.....some cities have money for improvements while others don't AND some cities have the money but city officials are content on the way things look.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55
I grew up in a boating family - although I never caught the "bug". And my general experience in Florida since 1971 (I started on boats in New Jersey in the 1960's) has been that although there is some very high class responsible boating (which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the size or price of one's boat) - a lot of it is low class - and a pestilence. People who don't obey "no wake zones" or Manatee zones. People who dump their untreated sewage into the waterways. People who boat when drunk. People who don't obey fish and game laws. And - most importantly - people who won't pay beans for boating resources - so taxpayers wind up paying the bills. We live in some difficult economic times these days. Boating is a luxury. And I think those who want to engage in it should pay for it themselves - not impose their costs on taxpayers.I mean - would anyone have a problem charging a boat owner the same amount that someone pays to park his car downtown? You're talking maybe $10-15 (and there probably should be scaled rates for smaller and larger boats - the guy with the 15 foot bass boat shouldn't pay the same as the guy with the 60 foot yacht). Robyn
I think Jax has a few Brazilian steakhouses. Probably not on the same level as Fogo. Man...I no longer like to stuff myself the way I did when I was younger, but this is one thing I'd definitely be willing to do again. Yumm
Also love Legal Seafoods, haha. But maybe more because of memories than the food itself.
There is(was?) one of those Brazilian type places out here n JAX Beach. Not my favorite food or way to eat.
I'd be making it up if I told you I remember what the food at Legal Seafoods in Cambridge tasted like 30+ years ago. But the food at the place in Boca has been good the couple of times we've been there in the last couple of years. And Costco (here) sells the The Legal Seafoods clam chowder (sometimes one or two other soups as well). They taste good - but you don't dare take a look at the nutritional information on the label. Robyn
My Uncle had a ski boat that I would go on sometimes. My wife's family were definitely boaters having two small ski boats and a cottage on a local lake in Mich. I didn't get the "bug" until I met my wife. Robyn, there are terrible boaters out there just as there are terrible drivers (cars) out there. We don't stay off of the water and streets/freeways because of them......right? As far as "tough economic time"......I really wouldn't say that! Plenty of people spending money this Christmas and Red Lobster and Longhorn restaurants sure aren't having a problem (parking lots pretty full most of the time). People still have money to see the Jags play and seen the Rocketts this month. And, by the way, boaters ARE taxpayers. Boating can be a luxury, depending on the size of boat bought and cost. We paid $10k for our boat and it's a 1992. Just look at what a new boat costs and some people have no problem at all buying a new boat.
When something is FREE, most people hate/don't want to see a charge put on it due to whatever. Like anything else, I really don't expect anybody who hasn't got the "bug" for something to understand people who have the "bug" for something......when it comes to charging for something that is free.
I still say, if people want a real "lively" downtown area, they need to live in Las Vegas, New York or somewhere like that. Another way to look at it is.....some cities have money for improvements while others don't AND some cities have the money but city officials are content on the way things look.
User fees aren't the wave of the future. They're here - and are only going to expand.
I don't boat - but I play golf. Do you think all municipal golf courses in the metro area should be free? (Hint - they aren't). And I used to play tennis. The better municipal tennis facilities (like Boone Park) charge money to play. So why should golfers and tennis players pay - and boaters not? I'd rather give a poor kid free time on a good tennis court than a boater free docking at the Landing (although - not living in Duval County - I don't have a say in this). Robyn
The ones in Jax, Tento Churrascuria in Jax Beach and Espeto in Ortega/Avondale, are just alright (though I haven't been since both were new, perhaps they have gotten better). I think both are $39 a plate prix fixe. Fogo de Chao might run you closer to $60 a plate and the meat is of a higher quality. I can understand most women not preferring a Brazilian steakhouse to a more petite, fine restaurant, but for a man or a big meat lover, you really can't go wrong with a good Brazilian steakhouse. (unlimited meat, usually 12-16 different cuts prepared different ways until you tell the waiter (gaucho) to stop bringing the meat) I know that most of the staff at Espeto is actually Brazilian, which struck me as really cool and a plus for the place.
Legal Seafoods is definitely good (didn't know they sold products at Costco, cool!), but I would place Mitchell's Fish Market or McCormick & Schmick's (which we don't have) on the same level and offering a very similar product. If you haven't tried Mitchell's and you enjoy seafood that is fresh (flown in, usually never frozen), then I suggest it. It's at the Town Center across from Capital Grille.
User fees aren't the wave of the future. They're here - and are only going to expand.
I don't boat - but I play golf. Do you think all municipal golf courses in the metro area should be free? (Hint - they aren't). And I used to play tennis. The better municipal tennis facilities (like Boone Park) charge money to play. So why should golfers and tennis players pay - and boaters not? I'd rather give a poor kid free time on a good tennis court than a boater free docking at the Landing (although - not living in Duval County - I don't have a say in this). Robyn
I agree that public docks shouldn't be free, but those are rare due to strict liability. Most docks are privately built and operated, and many of them serve restaurants and are free because they bring in patrons that usually spend a boatload more than people who drive. When you boat to a place like Outback Crabshack or the Landing, you are in a leisurely "drift" mode and not in a hurry, plus drinking and driving a boat is a little more easy to get away with than drinking and driving a car. Also, if by boat, usually your party is large so everyone gets appetizers, several rounds of drinks, entrees, and desserts and the restaurant or bar really profits more and is thus able to pay higher rent. For the landlord the benefits of the dock outweigh the costs of insurance, construction, and operation.
I don't know the details, but the dock at the Landing may not actually be a truly "public" dock and the dock going in at the Riverside Arts Market may be funded by RAM and not actually public either. I do know that both worked with the city because both are on the city's easements into the river since both are floating and are on the bulkhead from the low water mark to land.
Other than those two docks (which may technically be private), the other docks in the city are either private homeowner's docks, private marina docks, private yacht club and boating club docks, private shipyard or port authority docks (the latter is complicated), or private restaurant or bar docks that are usually free to encourage people to come by boat. To own a slip at a good marina is actually quite expensive (could cost cost half a million dollars for a berthed 50 ft slip in a nice place or at a condo like those on the ICW or on the river). To build a good raised dock that won't be destroyed in a hurricane (ours was one of the few not destroyed in '04, everyone else's ended up in our yard) can be quite expensive, as well. This is not to mention that your average boat is at least twice as expensive as your average car and a good 20 ft. boat like a Grady White could be over $100K. Gas is also more expensive and is not as efficiently used in boat engines (could cost $5,000+ just to fill up a 50 ft. yacht with enough gas to get to the destination and acouple hundred for your average 20 ft. boat).
So all in all, the taxpayer does not really subsidize the boater, boating is actually quite expensive, and that's all I have for today
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