North Florida High Schools Ranked Nationally (Jacksonville, Jacksonville Beach: best school, median income, living)

[JaxBlueMan]

It would sure make it a lot easier for these 'non magnet' schools to look better, if the Paxson and Stanton IB programs didn't regulary 'steal' the top performing students from all other surrounds high schools. Can you say 'Brain Drain?'

[fsquid]

thanks for posting that process, good read.

[madcapmagishion]

Originally Posted by JaxBlueMan

It would sure make it a lot easier for these 'non magnet' schools to look better, if the Paxson and Stanton IB programs didn't regulary 'steal' the top performing students from all other surrounds high schools. Can you say 'Brain Drain?'

Steal is probably the wrong word to use as the student and his/her parents must apply to go to the magnet schools. But I concur that the overall scores of all the other schools would probably rise if those "stolen" students went to the regular schools.

[JaxBlueMan]

You bet the scores would rise. Look at the math.

Paxson and Stanton have approx 150 IB students per grade x 4 grades = 600 IB students per school x 2 schools, for a total of 1200 IB students County wide.

These 1200 IB students are pulled from the other 20 County High Schools. That's a average of 60 of the very best students pulled from each of the other schools.

Factor in the other 200 lottery winning students per grade, and you get another 1600 total students. These students may or may not be the 'best' students, but the fact that they took the time and trouble to go through the lottery system means that they have highly motivated, and highly involved parents. So, that's another 80 above average students pulled from each of the other 20 'regular' County High Schools.

So, the total is 140 of the better and best students, from each of the other 20 County high schools.

Let's take Ponte Vedra High as an example, since it is the highest rated non magnet school on the US News list. I'm 100% sure that if we pulled their 60 very best students, and pulled another 80 of their better students, with the most involved parents, it would have a hugh immediate negative impact on their test scores, on their PTA, and on their general scholastic environment.

I don't understand the logic of the Paxson and Stanton magnet schools. (IB program excluded) We may be making ourselves feel better by being able to brag about the great US News rating for these two schools, but in order to do so, we've completely fubarred the other 20 County high schools. And then we complain about the low test scores for these same schools? Really?

[madcapmagishion]

Speaking of low test scores ... //www.city-data.com/forum/jacks...standards.html

[JaxBlueMan]

Good Grief. Talk about treating the symptom, and not the cause.

Having gone through the FCAT process several times over the past few years, with each of my daughters, this doesn't really surprise me.

The way the teachers would normally handle things is that they would literally spoon feed the students with the exact or very similar test questions. Over, and over......

There really wasn't much attempt to get the students to understand how they might apply that knowledge to other things, or how the answers could be utilized to better understand other subjects. It was all about rote memorization, and all about just passing the FCAT. Understanding and retention was never a consideration.

So, this time the teachers didn't have the opportunity to spoon feed their students, due to the new testing, and look what happened. Unfortunately, this year's scores are probably a much better indicator of the actual knowledge base.

Just another feather in the Duval County Public School systems cap.

[fsu813]

It's not a Duval County issue, it's a Florida issue.

There's many, many kids that haven't had a supportive academic life. They're going to struggle.

Those that do have a supportive academic life, don't (generally speaking).

Simple as that.

[madcapmagishion]

Originally Posted by fsu813

It's not a Duval County issue, it's a Florida issue.

There's many, many kids that haven't had a supportive academic life. They're going to struggle.

Those that do have a supportive academic life, don't (generally speaking).

Simple as that.

I totally agree it's not just a Jacksonville issue, it's statewide!

[JaxBlueMan]

Granted, the FCAT is a State wide issue. And there is no argument from me that parental concern and involvement has the greatest impact on student performance.

Yet Duval County regularly manages to end up at or near the bottom in State wide ranking.

I've lived in other several other places in Florida, as well as throughout rest of the Country. Duval just isn't where it should be, nor is it where other Florida Counties find it possible to be..

[JaxBlueMan]

Originally Posted by ssclulow

IMO, a student who would be accepted into the 3 high performing Duval County public schools could receive an equal, and possibly better, education in the St. Johns County public high schools. Grading of a school's performance is based upon achievement levels of all students lumped together within a school. You won't see subsets of students' performance within a school. In the case of the 3 high schools in Duval which are nationally ranked very high, ALL the students in those schools are high level performing (and most probably high IQ students) before they ever get accepted into those high schools. These schools probably have no special education students, no students with physical or mental challenges making learning difficult, etc. All St. Johns County Public high schools have populations with a wide range of student abilities. These schools are graded an the achievements of the entire student population within the school...not just achievements of the subset of students who are on par with those attending Paxon, Stanton, and Douglas. IMO it is very unfair to assume that St. Johns Public high schools are inferior to those 3 Duval schools based upon school gradings that are not comparing "apples to apples".

OK, then by the same token, isn't it unfair to compare St. Johns County schools to Duval schools that operate in depressed economic areas?
Certainly, if you can understand that it is unfair to compare St. Johns schools to the three Duval magnet schools, because the magnet schools have a better pool of students to select from, then you also have to agree that St. Johns can't make the case that it is better than Raines, Ribault, etc when St. Johns only draws from a lilly white, middle, to upper middle class pool of students?

In the end, the only real fair way to define a 'good' school is to take a look at what level the students were, when they first started attending the school, and where those same students are when they leave the school.

For example, if we just compare test scores, then St. Johns does very well. But lets say that on a scale of 1 to 10, (10 being best) a student enters the St. Johns school system as a '7'. Four years later when they graduate, that student is still a 7. Still an above average student, so the test scores look good, but no growth.

Conversely, a student is a 1 or a 2 when they enter a poor FCAT school, and are a 5, when they graduate.

Which school is better?

For my money, the school that took the challenged student from a 2, up to a 5, did a far better job than the school that inherited the above average student, and maintained their level. Yet, the current rankings system would tell us that the '7' school was much better.

Our problem with the school system isn't the kids that are already above average, and already have involved parents. Those kids will do well regardless of the school they attend. Our problem is with the disadvantaged students.

For this reason, I feel that our 'magnet' schools should be just as much for the bottom 10% students, as they are for the top 10%. Stanton and Paxson taking all of the IB quality students from all surrounding schools, doesn't make them a good school. As you point out, It essentially makes them private schools, that inherited students who were already doing well, and testing well.

If these schools are so good, I'd rather see them take the bottom 10% of the current students, and move these kids up from a 1 or 2, to a 5 or a 6. That would have a far great positive impact on our community, than isolating the already well performing students.