This just in: Jacksonville has very low taxes. (Miami, Gainesville: 2014, chapel)
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Here’s another cool thing about Jacksonville: it doesn’t compensate for not having a local income tax by jacking up property, sales, or auto taxes.
Let's not forget the Stormwater Fee, the high vehicle registrations fees and not related, but as others have mentioned, the high insurance rates.
All which still add up to low taxes. Too low. We get what we pay for.
Time to stop skimping on quality of life
Perhaps you believe that the legacy of reducing the property tax rate for a dozen years and the deep budget cuts that came with the recession have adversely affected Jacksonville’s quality of life.
The evidence of that is indeed abundant.
There’s no money to keep our libraries open as long as they should be and no money to buy needed materials, support programming or properly maintain the system’s infrastructure.
Our parks, which have the potential to be one of our greatest assets, are underfunded, children’s programs have been cut and the fire department is inadequately staffed.
There is a way to restore city services to the proper level although it would be a difficult sell politically.
It’s related to what the Retirement Reform Task Force settled on earlier this week as its preferred way for the city to begin climbing out of the $1.7 billion unfunded liability in the police and fire pension fund.
As part of a comprehensive package, the task force is recommending that the city put $200 million into the fund each year until it’s 80 percent funded. The funding now stands at 39 percent.
That would be about $50 million more than the general fund contributed to the pension fund this fiscal year. Where would that extra $50 million come from?
The task force is recommending a Fire/Rescue Surcharge (basically a sales tax increase) as the source. A half-cent sales tax increase, which is what the task force favors, would produce about $68 million annually.
That money would supplant general fund money now being used to support fire and rescue operations thus freeing that money to begin paying down the unfunded liability.
Getting there is complex.
First, the City Council would have to raise the property tax rate by about one-and-a-half mills with enough votes to override a veto from Mayor Alvin Brown, whose anti-tax stance has exacerbated the mess we are in.
fsu813 - What this and other articles basically say is people should pay more taxes so the city will continue to pay its inflated pension costs and won't go bankrupt as a result of them. So how does paying more taxes that will go largely to pension costs improve anyone's quality of life - unless you're one of the people who has/will have one of these pensions?
Perhaps - at some point JAX should just go bankrupt - and restructure its pension obligations best it can in a bankruptcy. Best I can tell - from what I read in the FTU - the pension recipients aren't exactly willing to give up anything. Including pensions after working 20 years - or mandatory annual 3% inflation adjustments in a period of < 3% inflation. Etc.
I'm not sure how a bankruptcy would work out. I think the current litigation in Detroit will give us some (but not all) answers. Anyway - until that pension stuff is dealt with - taxpayers - if they pay more taxes - won't be getting better libraries - schools - or trash cleanup. They'll just be pouring more money down a pension rat hole IMO.
Note that JAX is far from unique in this regard. It's an issue in just about every older metro area in the US (most have unsustainable legacy pension obligations). Robyn
You get what you pay for. We are moving home to VA and started touring schools, my husband turned to me and said he felt we were moving from a third world country to a first. We saw a school admin building that used to be a school, they no longer use it as such because it is not up to standards; its nicer than any school I've seen in Duval. We toured an elementary school and it was simply incredible, the bathrooms had hand soap, TP and paper towels and they were clean, good size gym with lots of equipment. All the after school activities and clubs were free, we pay $75-85 per club per quarter for each activity. Every elementary school had a full time school nurse, PE, Art, Music, Librarian and there was no one dedicated to "test taking skills". Kids also get recess every day by state law which Duval began to do away with this year. The cafeteria actually smelled good, my kids were just open mouthed, they kept saying that everyone seemed so happy.
We also visited VA state and local city parks, I forgot, there are kayaks and paddle boats and maintained trails, huge playgrounds and sport fields. Staff are friendly and helpful and the parks are free. There are also community rec centers that are nice and inexpensive per year for pool and fitness, like $250 for the year if not a student or in need.
Roads were in general maintained and there were sidewalks everywhere. The funny thing was that this was not a big city we visited but a small town.
Maybe if we were retired and didn't want parks, great schools, libraries that are open or museums with exhibits that change, Jacksonville would be fine. I'd rather pay higher taxes and have access to these things. Jacksonville has access to the best healthcare in the world, beautiful beaches, fishing, hunting, boating and other natural resources. We've been here 13 years and I hope the city eventually invests in keeping professional young people and families here.
You get what you pay for. We are moving home to VA and started touring schools, my husband turned to me and said he felt we were moving from a third world country to a first. We saw a school admin building that used to be a school, they no longer use it as such because it is not up to standards; its nicer than any school I've seen in Duval. We toured an elementary school and it was simply incredible, the bathrooms had hand soap, TP and paper towels and they were clean, good size gym with lots of equipment. All the after school activities and clubs were free, we pay $75-85 per club per quarter for each activity. Every elementary school had a full time school nurse, PE, Art, Music, Librarian and there was no one dedicated to "test taking skills". Kids also get recess every day by state law which Duval began to do away with this year. The cafeteria actually smelled good, my kids were just open mouthed, they kept saying that everyone seemed so happy.
We also visited VA state and local city parks, I forgot, there are kayaks and paddle boats and maintained trails, huge playgrounds and sport fields. Staff are friendly and helpful and the parks are free. There are also community rec centers that are nice and inexpensive per year for pool and fitness, like $250 for the year if not a student or in need.
Roads were in general maintained and there were sidewalks everywhere. The funny thing was that this was not a big city we visited but a small town.
Maybe if we were retired and didn't want parks, great schools, libraries that are open or museums with exhibits that change, Jacksonville would be fine. I'd rather pay higher taxes and have access to these things. Jacksonville has access to the best healthcare in the world, beautiful beaches, fishing, hunting, boating and other natural resources. We've been here 13 years and I hope the city eventually invests in keeping professional young people and families here.
I honestly can't talk about schools in Duval County (because the only ones I've been in are in SJC - where I live). Which schools did your kids attend in Duval County (they tend to run the gamut in Duval County best I can figure out).
OTOH - in your 13 years here - which national/state/local parks/preserves have you been to in Florida? Everglades - Manatee Springs - Paynes Prairie? List them.
Where have you gone kayaking/canoeing or similar? List the places. Did you even check out Amelia Island or St. Mary's up the road.
Which community center have you belonged to here? Which Y - perhaps the JCC?
My husband and I have lived in Florida for 40+ years. We are not the most avid outdoor people in the world - more like amateurs who like camping out inside when night falls . But we have hiked and biked and canoed and gone swimming all over the state. My husband was a runner who has run perhaps thousands of miles in Florida. We've done other things ranging from scuba diving to exploring gardens (as well as gardening). Have also played golf and tennis and belonged to various "fitness" places (like our local Y here).
And we're not even interested in some things other people like - like fishing and hunting - even bird watching - you name it - we have it here. Note that although we're not avid fishermen - we did do some big game fishing in south Florida - and now go to the JAX pier once in a while to catch and release little fish and BS with people.
If you diss public schools in Duval County - I'm not in a position to argue with you (whether or not you're right).
But if you say the recreational facilities/opportunities here and elsewhere in Florida are in any way substandard - you are just plain wrong IMO. And have perhaps spent your 13 years here being a couch potato. And now think maybe you'll turn over a new leaf by moving to a state where it's winter like half the year (fat chance).
Or perhaps you couldn't afford the the $120/year family pass for the Florida state park system :
If you couldn't afford our local Y at about $650/year - there *is* financial assistance available (we donate to the fund that helps families who couldn't otherwise afford to join - join). OTOH - if I were looking for "less expensive" - Virginia wouldn't be the first or fifth or twentieth state that pops into my head.
Now if you told me you didn't like living in a place that doesn't have a Bloomingdales - well I could relate to that. But that BS about not having parks and recreational opportunities is just nonsense IMO.
And just FWIW - what great museums are you looking at in Virginia? Ours in Florida are kind of mediocre - but I have never traveled to Virginia to go to a world class museum. Although I have traveled to other states/countries to do so (will be going to Houston next month to see perhaps the Magritte exhibition of my lifetime at the Menil). Robyn
Wow Robyn55 no need to criticize me personally, it was my understanding that this thread was about Jacksonville, not St. Johns County. Your comments about what we can afford are unwarranted, both my husband and I are professionals with adequate access to funds; we realize not everyone is as fortunate as our family.
Perhaps your experience is very different in St. Johns vs. mine living in Duval. The truth is, I'm comparing what I have here in Jacksonville FL to what I had in VA when I lived there and what several cities in VA have to offer me now. My husband and I moved here for his position in healthcare, and are now able to live wherever we choose since he can work remotely and I can work anywhere in range of an airport. When we moved here we did not have children and so our needs were different. More and more people work remotely and Jacksonville will need to remain competitive to attract and retain newcomers. In the long run this will mean offering people more than low taxes and pretty beaches. For us, if we have to move to St. Johns County to have good schools, we might as well pick up and go to VA, where we will also have choices for a walkable city/town, abundant libraries, parks, museums etc. Since we are a young family, yes, schools, libraries, museums and neighborhoods are very important to us.
Yes, there are wonderful natural resources here but many of the parks are not well maintained or staffed and the costs are often much higher than what we pay in VA. I go to Hanna park almost every weekend in the summer, have kayaked Amelia, have run hundreds and hundreds of miles all around Jacksonville in many of its parks. It's true I've only lived in Duval, but that was the topic of this thread. There are some nice parks here in Jax but most of them I've experienced do not have the same options and are not as well maintained as those in VA, there is simply not a comparable budget. Try to rinse off in one of the beach showers at Hanna park next time you are there or use one of the bathrooms if it's working. Which parks do you recommend particularly?
I belong to the Y and it costs me over $65/month with the corporate discount, in VA I can join the city rec center for $250/year.
For the record many of the schools in Duval do not have basic supplies like toilet paper, soap, paper towels and trash bags, the facilities are crumbling, there are no gymnasiums, no sport fields, no equipment etc. Two years ago they had to demolish an entire wing of my kids elementary school because it was condemned due to lack of maintenance. The PTA pays for the landscaping, the track paving, we have paper towel drives, book drives etc. I have purchased a printer for the kids classroom, this year we purchased another one, we buy cleaning supplies, a whole long list of items, the last shopping list of basic necessities the teachers needed was over $120. These are things like Swiffer refills because no one cleans the crumbling classroom, and cleaning wipes, paper towels, hand soap etc. We are a school that has been A rated for over 10 years so it's not because the teachers, staff and kids don't deserve to be funded by the community. So yes, I'm excited to move to a city that cares about funding their schools properly.
Every year they reduce the number of hours and days the libraries are open and threaten to shut some of them down. We go to the MOSH (Museum of Science of History) and it is pricey yet it has the same exhibits it's had since we first moved here. The body, Jacksonville through time, plus one that changes on the top floor. The Cummer is lovely but it's not enough.
The one thing Jacksonville IS getting is shopping. Tiffanys, Louis Vuitton, restaurants galore. I will say I've enjoyed watching the culinary scene mature. I wasn't that upset by the lack of shopping as I am able to shop when I travel to my office in DC. I can say I will miss our friends and the great people here, our wonderful church, and the lovely beaches.
You say you aren't familiar with the museums in VA, many Virginians are within driving distance of Washington DC's Smithsonian museums and a first trip there is often a rite of passage. If you are interested in art, and it would appear you are, the National Gallery, Sculpture Garden and Corcoran are good bets. Write your congressperson and request the White House tour, I did it as a child, have been at Christmastime and have taken my daughter in the fall and Christmas. It's lovely and free, but you must be a citizen, otherwise your embassy must request for you. The Smithsonian museums alone are worth a full week, but NOT during Cherry Blossom festival, spring break or some other similarly crowded time. DC (in most parts, and all of them that you will visit) is a safe, walkable city and you never need a car there. Fall and Christmas are my favorite times in DC and if congress is not in session hotels will be inexpensive. Jax has a flight from USAir/AA to DCA for $99 each way. Take a cab straight to downtown and then metro, cab or Uber, never need a car, AT ALL unless you want one for other excursions to Mount Vernon etc.
VA was home to many US presidents to include Washington, Jefferson, Monroe, Tyler and Harrison and many of their birthplaces and/or homes are there to be toured. The second oldest college in the US, William and Mary still stands and is free to walk the grounds, and full of history, founded in 1693. It's a public ivy league and educated the likes of Thomas Jefferson, James Monroe and Tyler too, as well as Chief Justice John Marshall and a long line of other notables. They have their own excellent museum onsite, the Muscarelle, with amazing exhibits. Virginia really does have a rich history and is worth a trip if you haven't been, it's a great road trip to see the old battle sites, homes of presidents, etc. Let me know what you are interested in and I can suggest other things, there are MANY MANY museums, you could spend a lot of time depending on your interests.
Wow Robyn55 no need to criticize me personally, it was my understanding that this thread was about Jacksonville, not St. Johns County. Your comments about what we can afford are unwarranted, both my husband and I are professionals with adequate access to funds; we realize not everyone is as fortunate as our family.
Well why then are you comparing only JAX/Duval County with a whole state - Virginia? I've been in quite a few places in Virginia on multiple trips. Some of the places I've been to/through are - like you say - quite nice. Others are mediocre ---> bad.
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Perhaps your experience is very different in St. Johns vs. mine living in Duval. The truth is, I'm comparing what I have here in Jacksonville FL to what I had in VA when I lived there and what several cities in VA have to offer me now. My husband and I moved here for his position in healthcare, and are now able to live wherever we choose since he can work remotely and I can work anywhere in range of an airport. When we moved here we did not have children and so our needs were different. More and more people work remotely and Jacksonville will need to remain competitive to attract and retain newcomers. In the long run this will mean offering people more than low taxes and pretty beaches. For us, if we have to move to St. Johns County to have good schools, we might as well pick up and go to VA, where we will also have choices for a walkable city/town, abundant libraries, parks, museums etc. Since we are a young family, yes, schools, libraries, museums and neighborhoods are very important to us.
Many of our newer younger neighbors work remotely (and - to the extent that I do somewhat business oriented things - I work remotely too). All of these younger neighbors are coming from the NE and mid-Atlantic states to get away from super high taxes - congestion - lousy weather - and what they feel is a deteriorating quality of life. And - again - you're comparing the opportunities in JAX with those in a whole state - Virginia. A better comparison would be JAX versus town/city/county X in Virginia. Along these lines - what is your #1 choice in Virginia that you're comparing with JAX?*
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Yes, there are wonderful natural resources here but many of the parks are not well maintained or staffed and the costs are often much higher than what we pay in VA. I go to Hanna park almost every weekend in the summer, have kayaked Amelia, have run hundreds and hundreds of miles all around Jacksonville in many of its parks. It's true I've only lived in Duval, but that was the topic of this thread. There are some nice parks here in Jax but most of them I've experienced do not have the same options and are not as well maintained as those in VA, there is simply not a comparable budget. Try to rinse off in one of the beach showers at Hanna park next time you are there or use one of the bathrooms if it's working. Which parks do you recommend particularly?
My favorite park in Florida for canoeing (when my husband could still canoe) was Manatee Springs on the west coast. My favorite bike ride was Shark Valley in the Everglades. I used to love to go shelling on Sanibel. These are easy weekend/long weekend trips. And we've taken dozens of them around Florida over the decades. Note that I am not a "white water" canoe person or a camping type - and that I hate the cold water in the "hot springs". So I'm speaking from the POV of an older more sedate woman than a younger more adventurous family (the latter may like things I don't).
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I belong to the Y and it costs me over $65/month with the corporate discount, in VA I can join the city rec center for $250/year.
That is about what our Winston Y membership costs. The Winston Y is an excellent facility and worth every penny IMO. FWIW - since you are successful professionals - what you will pay in state income tax in a state like Virginia (whether you live in a nice part of the state or a crummy part of the state) would probably buy you 20+ annual Y memberships!
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For the record many of the schools in Duval do not have basic supplies like toilet paper, soap, paper towels and trash bags, the facilities are crumbling, there are no gymnasiums, no sport fields, no equipment etc. Two years ago they had to demolish an entire wing of my kids elementary school because it was condemned due to lack of maintenance. The PTA pays for the landscaping, the track paving, we have paper towel drives, book drives etc. I have purchased a printer for the kids classroom, this year we purchased another one, we buy cleaning supplies, a whole long list of items, the last shopping list of basic necessities the teachers needed was over $120. These are things like Swiffer refills because no one cleans the crumbling classroom, and cleaning wipes, paper towels, hand soap etc. We are a school that has been A rated for over 10 years so it's not because the teachers, staff and kids don't deserve to be funded by the community. So yes, I'm excited to move to a city that cares about funding their schools properly.
Since you're not adverse to moving to a very high COL place - why did you not use a school like Bolles - or one of the magnet schools in Duval County?
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Every year they reduce the number of hours and days the libraries are open and threaten to shut some of them down. We go to the MOSH (Museum of Science of History) and it is pricey yet it has the same exhibits it's had since we first moved here. The body, Jacksonville through time, plus one that changes on the top floor. The Cummer is lovely but it's not enough.
MOSH has many of the same permanent exhibits that it had when we first moved here. But it has had many "traveling shows" over the years. As for price - we buy Entertainment books with lots of bogo coupons (if for no other reason than when we get visitors - we have to take them places and keep them busy). IMO - the real star in JAX is the zoo (family membership = $115/year) - which has gone through incredible changes since we moved here.
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The one thing Jacksonville IS getting is shopping. Tiffanys, Louis Vuitton, restaurants galore. I will say I've enjoyed watching the culinary scene mature. I wasn't that upset by the lack of shopping as I am able to shop when I travel to my office in DC. I can say I will miss our friends and the great people here, our wonderful church, and the lovely beaches.
I still think the shopping here is lousy (e.g., the Tiffany is a dumbed down store compared with its counterparts in higher income areas). OTOH - on-line shopping has changed the way I shop. And - for really high priced spread shopping - even if I'm just looking for "eye candy" - I am usually in a major metro part of the world at least once or twice a year.
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You say you aren't familiar with the museums in VA, many Virginians are within driving distance of Washington DC's Smithsonian museums and a first trip there is often a rite of passage...
So now you're comparing the whole state of Virginia AND Washington D.C. with Duval County? Perhaps you might want to compare the public school system in DC with the public school system in JAX - we can ask Michelle Rhee ? Note that I have been to Washington DC - both on business and as a tourist (at my age - I've been just everywhere in the US at least once). And I honestly have no desire to return to the mid-Atlantic I-95 corridor for anything (not even hubbing through an airport there). Too congested. Next trip is to Houston to see the Magritte exhibit at the Menil.
Anyway - doesn't sound like a fair comparison to me. Comparing a whole state (and only the best parts of it) plus a nearby metro area outside the state with one not especially wealthy county in Florida. Makes about as much sense as comparing Virginia coal mining country with Palm Beach. You're also comparing a few things in this area that are very close to you with anything that is within "driving distance" of some unknown place in Virginia. Makes about as much sense as saying Atlanta is within driving distance of here (which it is - I go there on a somewhat regular basis) - so people ought to count the High Museum in Atlanta as an attraction when they're considering a move here (which I think would be pretty silly). Robyn
*Along these lines - it would also be useful to compare the demographic data in these places. I would bet that any school district in Virginia that is as black/hispanic as Duval County (approximately 1/3) won't have schools that are any better than those you describe in Duval County. It's just an unfortunate fact of life these days. Better public schools tend to be "whiter" - worse ones "blacker/more hispanic". Without regard to the taxes people pay for them.
[quote=Robyn55;33999863]Well why then are you comparing only JAX/Duval County with a whole state - Virginia? I've been in quite a few places in Virginia on multiple trips. Some of the places I've been to/through are - like you say - quite nice. Others are mediocre ---> bad.
I was not intending to get into an argument, so I'm not going to respond to the majority of what you have said. Moving is the right decision for our family. I'm very glad you and your family are happy here, everyone makes choices for different reasons. I only mentioned the DC museums because you said you were interested in art, particularly a certain artist and those museums have a number of his paintings on permanent exhibit. I was trying to be helpful, since it seemed you were someone who enjoyed traveling to see that sort of thing.
My children do go to an A rated magnet school, and it still faces the challenges I listed. Furthermore, my state and city taxes in the town we've chosen in VA would be much less than tuition at Bolles for two children for the rest of their primary and secondary years. VA has many low to mid cost areas in addition to Northern VA, one of which we've chosen to live in. VA also has a very wide selection of public colleges which opens up a range of options for post secondary education.
Best wishes to you and hope you get to enjoy the weather today, it's beautiful out there.
I'm not familiar with Williamsburg. Closest I've stayed overnight was Chesapeake VA - when we had to drive back home here after 9/11 grounded flights nationwide (we were spending our 30th anniversary then in Manhattan and had to rent a car to drive home). 9/11 was depressing enough - spending my birthday in an Olive Garden in Chesapeake on 9/13 was worse (the area was pretty dumpy but the staff was really nice). And the worst part was arriving back home just in time to find out that a tropical storm had closed down the Dames Point Bridge .
Anyway - perhaps mrspike will wind up in a place that's better for her. But she should note that William & Mary isn't an Ivy League school. Robyn
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. But we have hiked and biked and canoed and gone swimming all over the state. My husband was a runner who has run perhaps thousands of miles in Florida. We've done other things ranging from scuba diving to exploring gardens (as well as gardening). Have also played golf and tennis and belonged to various "fitness" places (like our local Y here).
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