School feedback requested: private, public/magnet Duval, St John's public (Jacksonville: lawyers, house)
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I wasn't aware that there is an ignore feature available on city-data. I researched the feature and I am grateful that it exists. I will definitely begin using it.
I've never used the ignore feature. Guess I read fast enough that even the worst messages anywhere from anyone are only minor speed bumps. And even people who usually write garbage can write gems from time to time. You never know.
It's not like we have so many posters on the JAX forum. Although you are perhaps active in other forums with many more posters - some of whom never have anything to offer. Robyn
...Here is something I'm actually still trying to understand: You send your child to Jacksonville Beach (or other "accelerated" elementary), which feeds into a magnet middle school - in a completely different part of town- and the same for HS?? The magnets, as far as I can tell, aren't really zoned for any one area. I'm a bit clueless as to how all of this works?? Also, what happens if they "stumble" along the way, there's no guarantee here. How many actually start out in K and make it through 12 on the magnet track?? What happens to a magnet "dropout" or "burnout?" I've also gathered that different schools have a slightly different emphasis, the arts, STEM and humanities, is this correct??...
Let me give you my understanding as a non-parent of students - but long time resident of this metro area (and another in Florida - Miami - with a similar school system). And I absolutely 100% invite anyone more familiar with the process to correct me if I'm wrong. People who don't live here - or have lived here for < a year need not apply.
The whole idea of magnet schools is to attract non-minority (white - not black or brown) students of middle or upper middle income (not lower income) to stay in what are basically lousy minority lower income school districts (in Florida and elsewhere). Sometimes these schools have an academic orientation (like Stanton). Some are kind of artsy-fartsy (like Douglas Anderson).
It - at this point - is basically a last gasp attempt to rescue failing public school systems. Because...
If you're a lower income minority kid who gets into a magnet school by the lottery system - you're likely over your head and likely to "flunk out". Which is why there so's much opposition to these systems today on the part of concerned lower income minority parents (a lot of whom tend to favor things like charter schools). OTOH - when it comes to the middle or upper income non-minority kids/parents (who have little likelihood of flunking out) - they listen to all the patter - think "the times they are a changing and act accordingly. They tend to avoid the magnet schools and the school districts that depend on them to attract non-minority middle or higher income kids.
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Many have mentioned (elsewhere) that the HS programs are really the main draw. It seems as though those who choose Bolles for elementary or middle school are doing so b/c of location, or as an improved means for admission into the HS?? Choosing Episcopal, religious affiliation, I suppose. But what makes their reputation so good?? College acceptance rates, teachers, campus??
Until very recently - like < 10 years - there were very few what I'd call middle middle class families with children here. People either had money - and sent their kids to private schools. And a place like Bolles sent many people my age - some of whom I know - to places like Harvard and Yale and similar. Or they didn't have money - and sent their kids to public schools. Over perhaps the last 5-10 years - there have been a few developments. The public school system in Duval County - and the county in general - has deteriorated. Also - during the last decade - our county commissioners in St. Johns County approved the building of in excess of 50k houses in various communities in St. Johns County (Nocatee and elsewhere). This in a county that only had < 200 residents a few years ago.
About the same time - all these school websites started to sprout up like mushrooms. And SJC looked good - at least on paper. Because we were basically an upper middle class area (along the coast) combined with some migrant farm worker communities to the west. I don't think most people moving here today realize how small a county we are population-wise - or how tenuous things might be if all those 50k houses get built. Especially since we're pretty conservative in terms of taxes. And it's not like our our property taxes are low now. About 1.5% annually - taxed at full value.
I'm not sure what people are looking for when they're moving here with their their 2.4 kids. But if they don't think they and their kids will have an effect both on the county - and the county school system - they ought to think again. Robyn
Ivy League universities and highly selective colleges have huge endowments and don't only admit rich kids from private schools. They want a diverse group of students from varied states, countries, socioeconomic status, areas of interest, accomplishments, athletes, etc.
Ivy League universities and highly selective colleges have huge endowments and don't only admit rich kids from private schools. They want a diverse group of students from varied states, countries, socioeconomic status, areas of interest, accomplishments, athletes, etc.
That's what the respective PR departments want everyone to believe. Yes, these schools do have huge endowments and they sensed that these would be taxed, if they didn't act. Some acted by offering indexed tuition - Harvard likely has its own term for this- as a proactive measure before the "powers that be" could wag their fingers and tax the endowments. The city of Cambridge, MA has been trying to get its hands on some of this $$ for some time.
Every few years the "profiles" at these schools change. Some years they want more Southerners, "science geeks" or those who have scaled dangerous mountains backwards - or whatever they deem a benefit to both their future endowment fund or to their rankings. This is BIG business. And don't think for a minute that they are using a penny of those huge endowments to finance students who qualify for reduced tuition fess. This is generously done by locals, yes, but mostly by an ever-increasing number of international students who pay full fees. Many of these institutions would reject a highly-qualified, "economically disadvantaged," backwards mountain-climbing "local" student, and admit a international student, who has scored brilliantly on the standardized tests, but "little" else.
Sooooo, if anyone is moving to the area as a means of improving the chances of acceptance at one of these esteemed institutions, I would be very, very, careful.
Let me give you my understanding as a non-parent of students - but long time resident of this metro area (and another in Florida - Miami - with a similar school system). And I absolutely 100% invite anyone more familiar with the process to correct me if I'm wrong. People who don't live here - or have lived here for < a year need not apply.
The whole idea of magnet schools is to attract non-minority (white - not black or brown) students of middle or upper middle income (not lower income) to stay in what are basically lousy minority lower income school districts (in Florida and elsewhere). Sometimes these schools have an academic orientation (like Stanton). Some are kind of artsy-fartsy (like Douglas Anderson).
It - at this point - is basically a last gasp attempt to rescue failing public school systems. Because...
If you're a lower income minority kid who gets into a magnet school by the lottery system - you're likely over your head and likely to "flunk out". Which is why there so's much opposition to these systems today on the part of concerned lower income minority parents (a lot of whom tend to favor things like charter schools). OTOH - when it comes to the middle or upper income non-minority kids/parents (who have little likelihood of flunking out) - they listen to all the patter - think "the times they are a changing and act accordingly. They tend to avoid the magnet schools and the school districts that depend on them to attract non-minority middle or higher income kids.
Yeah, I was familiar with their basic premise and emergence out of the Open Schools movement. So it seems that at the magnets in Duval, both groups have gotten a good whiff and are now abandoning ship and swimming to brighter shores? I guess that means charters for minorities and SJC and privates for non-minorities. I have never experienced teaching at these schools first-hand, however the AP and IB scores, FWTW, are impressive. I was still, naively perhaps, hoping that their "numbers" reflected effective pedagogy and a positive school culture.
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Until very recently - like < 10 years - there were very few what I'd call middle middle class families with children here. People either had money - and sent their kids to private schools. And a place like Bolles sent many people my age - some of whom I know - to places like Harvard and Yale and similar. Or they didn't have money - and sent their kids to public schools.
Yep, was like that where I grew up. We didn't have many good local privates though - Catholics or the "Day" schools. If you wanted a good private that often meant a boarding school.
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Over perhaps the last 5-10 years - there have been a few developments. The public school system in Duval County - and the county in general - has deteriorated. Also - during the last decade - our county commissioners in St. Johns County approved the building of in excess of 50k houses in various communities in St. Johns County (Nocatee and elsewhere). This in a county that only had < 200 residents a few years ago.
Wow, those numbers are pretty shocking.
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About the same time - all these school websites started to sprout up like mushrooms. And SJC looked good - at least on paper.
On paper and in the Holy Grail, "US News & World Report," the "tripe" that sustains many. Don't get me wrong, I look at it too, but it doesn't tell me much. Some stats are interesting, but we all know it's hard work to interpret their meaning and value. The rankings can't shed any light on this nebulous thing I call "school culture."
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Because we were basically an upper middle class area (along the coast) combined with some migrant farm worker communities to the west. I don't think most people moving here today realize how small a county we are population-wise - or how tenuous things might be if all those 50k houses get built. Especially since we're pretty conservative in terms of taxes. And it's not like our our property taxes are low now. About 1.5% annually - taxed at full value.
Red flag waving...
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I'm not sure what people are looking for when they're moving here with their their 2.4 kids. But if they don't think they and their kids will have an effect both on the county - and the county school system - they ought to think again. Robyn
I'm afraid that human beings by nature, think short-term, if they think at all. Some will also likely categorize your warnings as doomsday cynicism and promptly ignore them. Thanks for the long-time resident viewpoint, much obliged.
That's what the respective PR departments want everyone to believe. Yes, these schools do have huge endowments and they sensed that these would be taxed, if they didn't act. Some acted by offering indexed tuition - Harvard likely has its own term for this- as a proactive measure before the "powers that be" could wag their fingers and tax the endowments. The city of Cambridge, MA has been trying to get its hands on some of this $$ for some time.
Every few years the "profiles" at these schools change. Some years they want more Southerners, "science geeks" or those who have scaled dangerous mountains backwards - or whatever they deem a benefit to both their future endowment fund or to their rankings. This is BIG business. And don't think for a minute that they are using a penny of those huge endowments to finance students who qualify for reduced tuition fess. This is generously done by locals, yes, but mostly by an ever-increasing number of international students who pay full fees. Many of these institutions would reject a highly-qualified, "economically disadvantaged," backwards mountain-climbing "local" student, and admit a international student, who has scored brilliantly on the standardized tests, but "little" else.
Sooooo, if anyone is moving to the area as a means of improving the chances of acceptance at one of these esteemed institutions, I would be very, very, careful.
Kids from wealthy families with perfect grades, SATs and resumes are getting rejected left and right from Ivy League schools. Yes to international admissions. The rest I'm not sure what you are saying. But I stand by what I said, that it's not just rich kids getting in. And FLA is not going to be considered "diverse" because there are many, many FLA kids applying to the ivy league (northeast is not that far and easy to get to; also IB program graduates from many FLA high schools apply to Ivy). A "diverse" (underrepresented) state would be more like Montana or Nebraska.
Alpine, honestly I think you are overanalyzing. Look at the ratings, visit the schools, figure out what is the best fit for your kids, and it's still a crapshoot. There is luck involved with teachers, classmates, culture, and your own kids' motivations and interests.
The biggest motivator for private school, in my opinion, is a traditional, challenging college preparatory education with motivated classmates....and avoiding state testing, which increasingly drives everything done in public school classrooms, and is a big issue right now due to Race to the Top Funding and Common Core. I'd read up on that as a big part of your decision about public vs. private education.
Kids from wealthy families with perfect grades, SATs and resumes are getting rejected left and right from Ivy League schools. Yes to international admissions. The rest I'm not sure what you are saying. But I stand by what I said, that it's not just rich kids getting in. And FLA is not going to be considered "diverse" because there are many, many FLA kids applying to the ivy league (northeast is not that far and easy to get to; also IB program graduates from many FLA high schools apply to Ivy). A "diverse" (underrepresented) state would be more like Montana or Nebraska.
I think you misinterpreted what I wrote. I don't think anyone really knows what the "secret recipe" to admission is and as you aptly noted, any attempt to "get in" may, indeed, lead to nowhere. I wasn't really sure what the context was for your comment. No one was mentioning Ivy Leagues, or the like here??
I interpreted what you said as wanting to emphasize that selective schools don't only admit rich, white kids. No, duh, they don't, but I don't believe the reason is based on altruism or huge endowments.
Also, the record low admittance you mention is because the pool of applicants just a got a whole lot bigger (think international applicants). These numbers aren't going away anytime fast. Some local (US) kids are getting squeezed out of an acceptance b/c the international students are applying in record numbers. And why are they being accepted?? Just b/c of "brilliant" test scores?, or b/c of the diversity they bring? or b/c of the full tuition fees they pay??
Yep, FL will not be considered "diverse" but perhaps "desirable" or "underrepresented" in the admissions process at a given school, at a give time. It's a crapshoot, absolutely, so why bother posting what these schools are doing or who is getting in???
Alpine, I have been following Robyn's posts for awhile and she has often indicated that Bolles is the route to the Ivy League, and that public schools are not. By % of graduating class accepted, that is probably true, but public schools are more diverse (ie it's only the top group at a public school that is aiming for this). I was just addressing that aspect of "school diversity" and academic excellence.
I really think the biggest driver is if you have $$$ for private, you can insulate from the politics of public schools - which is significant these days - and rub elbows with the other wealthy kids/families, if you want that (not sure you do). But the best public schools are also going to be in high socioeconomic areas, though like you said, they are still bigger and more diverse.
Last edited by snuffybear; 06-15-2014 at 09:09 AM..
...Just b/c of "brilliant" test scores?, or b/c of the diversity they bring? or b/c of the full tuition fees they pay??...
Judging from what I'm seeing in my family these days (and has been noted in some articles I've read)...
If you're an average upper income smart kid with excellent credentials these days - the ability to pay full tuition can make a difference.
I don't think that any school thinks that an upper middle class white kid from St. Johns County (or similar) would add to the diversity of its student population. There was a recent article in the UF Magazine that profiled some "diverse" students who were the first (among the first) in their families to attend college. Like a Vietnamese young lady whose family came here penniless after the Vietnam War. A poor white kid from the JAX metro area whose single mother raised her kids by doing menial jobs. Another child of poor immigrants from central America. A poor black kid from south Florida whose story was similar to the white kid from JAX.
And I guess this is the ultimate "diversity" story:
In all honesty - I'm not sure I'd want any kid of mine to go to any Ivy League school or similar today. Too much anti-Semitism/anti-Israel sentiment. At least undergraduate. OTOH - I have a niece-in-law who graduated from Harvard Dental School recently (she was a "diversity" student of the poor single mother family kind) - and another niece who will be doing her post-med school residency at Yale Medical School. Another niece is in Columbia business school now. They're 3 committed young ladies - have a firm sense of where they're going - and how to get there. And I am very proud of all of them. Although regret that all will eventually leave their training with a ton of debt.
A really weird thought popped into my mind writing this message. About perhaps re-doing our wills to pay off this student debt in our families when my husband and I die (it will probably still be around). Some of our bequests go to educational purposes - and it would be great to erase these family member educational debts upon our demise. What a great idea (hope it looks good in the morning!). Robyn
Last edited by Robyn55; 06-15-2014 at 03:34 PM..
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