Public Christian Prayers Before City Council Meetings (dangerous, nicest)

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by riveree

Well, if you're an atheist, you believe in the separation of church and state, so you'd probably prefer no praying at all.

But why name a god? Why not be inclusive and leave it open-ended? Why is city council exclusive by naming one particular god?

What if they started praying to Ganesha? Would anyone mind? Or would the taxpayers of Jacksonville start telling city council members to pray on their own time?

you're jumping the gun here, like I noted the OP didn't say what kind of prayer it was. While it was more than likely a christian prayer more than likely it was non denominational. Since Christians are the majority in the US you are likely to hear christian prayers, like another noted, we have the freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. Live and let live

[dolphin3]

Thats right! No harm,No foul! Why are some folks worried about "offending" people with a peaceful prayer? I don't think I want anyone who feels that way running the place I have to live. This country was founded by those whom founded it(Christian Men and Women) and that can not and should not be changed. If the muslims don't like it here they should go back home and change things back there. Must not be so bad. Ask someone who works in the Social Security office.

[gradco2004]

Well... I am atheist, but I don't have a problem with anyone saying prayers. I think the issue is not that the prayers are offensive, rather they are unnecessary. But, as clarified by previous posters, there is no clause seperating church from state, and we are entitled to a freedom of religion.

That being said, I know how someone would feel in that position because I experience it every day of my life. I do sometimes feel as though prayer initiated in a public forum can send a message of separation and exclusivitiy, so I feel that it is inappropriate. Do I lose sleep over it? No. Do I wish it would stop? Absolutely.

People are really just extremely sensitive. I chose to just not participate. Heck... I even join my family to church on occasions that are special to them. I do not agree with anything being said, nor do I participate... but it's really just not that big of a deal.

One problem I have with fellow atheists is that they sometimes want to oppress others because they feel oppressed by everyday society. That's not the right thing to do, but please understand how they may feel, and don't take it the wrong way.

... oh and "dolphin3", I guess we should just send the blacks back to Africa too, huh? Jeesh! No religious group owns or sponsors America. Everyone is free to practice as they wish. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt... you may not have known this.

[vdecapio]

It would be nice to see a variety of ethnicities and religous faiths represented on the council. I looked at the names/pictures of the 12? city council members and I saw some whites and some blacks some men and some women. But, it would be nice to see some Asians, some Italians, some Hispanics, some Greeks, some Russians, etc. on the council too. And it would be even cooler if all of the world's faiths were somehow represented on this council and in some way they were able to pray together. To me, that would be cool. I am not quite sure how we could fit an Atheist into the mold though....because as Gradco pointed out they are probably the only group opposed to various forms of prayer?

[gradco2004]

Originally Posted by vdecapio

It would be nice to see a variety of ethnicities and religous faiths represented on the council. I looked at the names/pictures of the 12? city council members and I saw some whites and some blacks some men and some women. But, it would be nice to see some Asians, some Italians, some Hispanics, some Greeks, some Russians, etc. on the council. And it would be even cooler if all of the world's faiths were somehow represented on this council and in some way they were able to pray together. To me, that would be cool. I am not quite sure how we could fit an Atheist into the mold though?

They should just do a silent time for "reflection." That does not exclude anyone. On my job, we cannot endorse any particular religion... so when one of our banks got robbed, and two tellers were murdered... we had a time for reflection. Some people prayed, some wrote, others just cried. It was a very unifying experience. No one felt excluded. Had it been prayer, more especially a lead prayer... things would not have turned out the same.

You have to understand the trials of an atheist to relate. We are always being excluded, put down, put to shame, harassed, degraded... by people who claim the Christian faith (although their actions contradict their teachings). There is usually a veil of hostility present, and it is a very hard & personal decision to choose to stay and listen to something you are against. Again... there are mature people, and ignorant people. Unfortunately, most people are exposed to the latter.

[johnrex62]

I will worry about pray at a council meeting becoming a case of undue influence on religion the day I see everyone come out of one of those meetings having had unanimous votes on all subjects and no public dissention. Only when they can get that persuasive do we have any issue with public officials influencing our religious beliefs.

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by vdecapio

It would be nice to see a variety of ethnicities and religous faiths represented on the council. I looked at the names/pictures of the 12? city council members and I saw some whites and some blacks some men and some women.

these people are elected to sit on that council, they are not appointed by some ethnic formula, this isn't NJ and there aren't as many different ethnic types here in JAX, if a greek, or a korean ran and won a seat there would be more diversity, but until someone runs and wins they won't be there, just how many russians do you think there are in JAX? I bet you could count any on your hand

[cricketfan]

I am having a hard time trying to figure out why people on this thread are so hot and bothered about a 5-minute prayer before a council meeting. As I said before, it is more of a ceremonial practice than anything else and I doubt that anyone in America has ever been persuaded to become a God-fearing christian after hearing one of these pre-meeting prayers. Neither has one of these prayers driven an atheist to examine his or her non-beliefs (I don't think). Gradco thinks they should be discontinued because they are unnecessary, well there are lots of other traditions and protocols in government that are unnecessary but we live with them because they do no harm.

[riveree]

Originally Posted by gradco2004

...I think the issue is not that the prayers are offensive, rather they are unnecessary...

That being said, I know how someone would feel in that position because I experience it every day of my life. I do sometimes feel as though prayer initiated in a public forum can send a message of separation and exclusivitiy, so I feel that it is inappropriate. Do I lose sleep over it? No. Do I wish it would stop? Absolutely.

Originally Posted by gradco2004

They should just do a silent time for "reflection." That does not exclude anyone...No one felt excluded. Had it been prayer, more especially a lead prayer... things would not have turned out the same.

I could not agree more . I don't lose sleep over it either, I just wish we could all be more inclusive and have a moment of reflection if we're going to have anything.

But if this is what city councils do everywhere (I don't know if they do or not ), then I don't suppose Jacksonville will be the city to do anything different on this issue.

[gradco2004]

Originally Posted by cricketfan

I am having a hard time trying to figure out why people on this thread are so hot and bothered about a 5-minute prayer before a council meeting. As I said before, it is more of a ceremonial practice than anything else and I doubt that anyone in America has ever been persuaded to become a God-fearing christian after hearing one of these pre-meeting prayers. Neither has one of these prayers driven an atheist to examine his or her non-beliefs (I don't think). Gradco thinks they should be discontinued because they are unnecessary, well there are lots of other traditions and protocols in government that are unnecessary but we live with them because they do no harm.

I said that I feel prayers are unnecessary, but I did not say that was the REASON why I did not feel they were appropriate. A direct quote follows:

I do sometimes feel as though prayer initiated in a public forum can send a message of separation and exclusivitiy, so I feel that it is inappropriate.

I have no problem saying that I do not care for prayers. On the other hand, I will fight right along side you to make sure you are able to do so, if you chose.

Further, just becuase there are other things that are unnecessary, does not mean that we should not take action if we feel there is something wrong. For instance // We have a problem with slavery here... but people are still murdering, and stealing. Why should we worry about slavery? // See the error in that line of thought? That is irresponsible reasoning in my opinion. If you feel there are other things that are unnecessary, why not speak up about it? Using that kind of logic is how atheist are usually made out to be the bad guys; even though EVERYONE has the right to speak up about things they take issue with.