Florida Coastal School of Law...should I go? (Miami, Gainesville: unemployment, colleges)

[djzippy]

Honeybeemel - this is djzippy, i offered advice back in march 09 against FCSL as well as the legal profession in general. After nearly 3 years I have to say it was the best decision to cut my losses. Accumulating 50k in loans from that one year was far better than getting into 6 figures and having no job prospects. My friends who stayed in school and graduated this past spring have ZERO jobs, and this is a few dozen people with whom I still keep in touch.

In June that year I started my Masters of Accountancy. Best decision ever. I got an internship that fall and was hired on after I graduated making 50k. I worked there until this past July and now work for an international corporation as a Senior Financial Analyst making 72k. I must reiterate to all prospective law students - don't go. Just don't. My minimum payment on 10 year plan for those loans is $715/month. Granted my substantial salary I am able to not only pay that but have set up my amortization schedule to pay off within 5 years.

My suggestions - don't go to law school. Get a degree that makes sense in the present and most importantly for your future. Mind you, I had a Psychology undergrad and did the Master of Acctcy so don't think you are localized to what your initial degree was.

Hope this sways some of you from future repayment torture.

[fsquid]

Men Only, Family Law only.

[HoneyBeeMel]

Yes, that's true. I only have experience working for colleges, and not law schools.

I truly believe nothing is impossible. A baby born to a crack addicted, prostitute mother in the ghetto's of Detroit can still grow up to become one of the top lawyers or doctors in the country, absolutely.

At the end of the day, those who will be successfull, will be successful no matter their circumstances...no matter what law school they attend, even. If this is truly your dream and you are truly passionate about it, then WORK YOUR BEHIND OFF and make it happen.

I think at the end of the day, the biggest problem is not the law school, but the clueless law school applicants and 1L's who have all these misconceptions and no real idea of what the heck they're getting themselves into. Too many people attend law school who should not. If you're destined to become a great lawyer, then nothing or no one can stand in your way--not even a for-profit school.

I hate to discourage people from following their dreams, and I feel sorta bad that maybe I've done that here on this thread, but honestly, from the bottom of my heart, I was just trying to help prevent people from making a mistake.

Here are some quotes of inspiration for those who need it:

"Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in the world they've been given than to explore the power they have to change it. Impossible is not a fact. It's an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration--it's a dare. Impossible is potential. Impossible is temporary. Impossible is nothing." ~Muhammad Ali

"If someone tells you, 'You can't', they really mean, 'I can't.'" - Sean Stephenson / "Don't let anybody try to clip your wings, by telling you that can't fly just because they won't even try! God gave us the power to soar as the eagles to the endless heights of our potential, never to be grounded,not even by the words of another! Put your trust in God & watch your flight never end!"

“The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams.” ~Eleanor Roosevelt

“You see things that are and you say, ‘Why?’ But I dream things that never were, and I say, ‘Why not?’" ~George Bernard Shaw

“You can never cross the ocean unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore.” ~Christopher Columbus

“There's a difference between interest and commitment. When you're interested in doing something, you do it only when circumstance permit. When you're committed to something, you accept no excuses, only results.”

“Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right.” ~Henry Ford

“Begin doing what you want to do now. We are not living in eternity. We have only this moment, sparkling like a star in our hand and melting like a snowflake. Let us use it before it is too late.” ~Marie Beynon Ray

“The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.” ~Ayn Rand

“Never tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon.”

“A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.” ~Lao Tzu

"Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all." ~Dale CarnegiePierce Brosnon

"No matter how many shots I miss, I've always believed I'm going to make the next one."

‎"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" ~ Winston Churchill

“While some may see them as the crazy ones,
We see genius.
Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world,
Are the ones who do.”

"If success is not on your own terms, if it looks good to the world but does not live in your heart, it is not success at all." ----> I often thought of this quote when I decided to drop out of law school :-)

"Every time you state what you want or believe, you're the first to hear it. It's a message to both you and others about what you think is possible. Don't put a ceiling on yourself."

“Above all, be true to yourself, and if you cannot put your heart in it, take yourself out of it.”


"Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

"According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a bee should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. The bee, of course, flies anyway, because bees don't care what humans think is impossible."

"Don't compare your life to others. You have no idea what their journey is all about."

“Keep away from those who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you believe that you too can become great.”

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the road less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference." ~Robert Frost

“If I had my life to live over: I'd dare to make more mistakes next time. I'd relax. I would limber up. I would be sillier than I have been this trip. I would take fewer things seriously. I would take more chances. I would climb more mountains."

[Robyn55]

Originally Posted by fcsl13

That said, the price of ALL higher ed schools, public and private, is ludicrously high because of the third-party payer system--known as gov't student loans.

I agree with you 100%. Even though I'm not sure that is the only factor (but it's certainly a significant factor). What other factors do you think might come into play?

My last year at Harvard Law School - 1971 - tuition was $1750/year. Now it is about $48000/year!!! Yes - there has been inflation since 1971 - but this is about 3-4-5 times or perhaps more than the rate of inflation in the CPI.

And when my husband and I went to school - a student without money could basically work during the school year and over the summer - and pay for everything out of pocket without taking out loans (my husband worked as a bartender during the school year and on the Ford Motor Company assembly line during the summer). At the end - he had to borrow $500 from his parents to pay for his last semester - but that was about it. It is basically 100% impossible to do this now. Robyn

[Robyn55]

Originally Posted by fcsl13

...I totally agree FCSL is a totally non-prestigious school. However, the professors are good. The education is good-->practitioner and skills based. Nobody coming out of the school with good grades doesn't know how to practice law...

The law is too prestigious for underclass-lings to become lawyers and all. Personally, I don't care for that kind of elitism. The law isn't all that complicated and society would be better if lawyers were not all silver spooned trust-fund babies...

I think I'm a pretty rational retired lawyer - with a good track record (second woman in Miami to get an AV Martindale/Hubbell rating) - and I disagree with both of these statements.

Neither my husband nor I knew how to do beans in terms of practicing law when we got out of law school (and I don't have any reason to believe any graduate from any law school today is different). In law school - they try to teach you how to think - not how to practice law (and sometimes - because we have things like really stupid judges elected by pretty stupid people - the less thinking you do - the better).

Today - I don't think law schools (especially at the high end) are totally elite. But what they've done is cut out the middle class. If you're rich - you're ok. If you're poor/minority - you're ok. If you're middle class - or even upper middle class - especially if you're an Asian or Jewish male - go to the back of the bus. The name of the game today at a place like Harvard is "diversity" - unless your name is Kennedy. Which is why Harvard will see none of our money when we leave this world. Robyn + DH (very middle class people who just worked a whole lot to do what we did in school - without any favoritism because we were legacies - or affirmative action candidates - etc. - etc.).

[fcsl13]

I think I'm a pretty rational retired lawyer - with a good track record (second woman in Miami to get an AV Martindale/Hubbell rating) - and I disagree with both of these statements.


I think you're right in someways so i'll add a footnote to what I said... FCSL does a good job preparing students to be useful to someone who practices law--if that student takes advantage of what the school offers. No, no-one is ready to practice law or hang a shingle the day they graduate.... So that came out wrong.

What I mean is-->

FCSL offers a herd of legal editing and researching classes as well as a herd of seminars on writing, editing, and researching. Hell, they assume you know nothing and train you from the ground up. They mandate two semesters of legal writing classes. There requisite courses are geared towards the practitioner--not legal theory.

In contrast, I clerk with an attorney that graduated from an ivy league school--he made a comment one day when we speaking with him that his school required very little of that.

The school also has a herd of legal librarians, who will make you a master at researching if you ask. The school also has first class resources... Lexis and westlaw reps abound and will spend one on one time with students. Anyone who applies themselves and takes advantage of what the school offers--> will be useful to any attorney right out of law school-->that is what I meant.

With the crap educations that people get coming out of k-12 government monopoly schools--FCSL has a niche that is they give those who do not have a resume worthy of law school--but are motivated and not prepared b/c of no fault of their own (most can't decide where they go to k-12 school)--a chance to go and possibly a step up in life.

The high cost of tuition--for many of them--is offset by (1) the chance to be the first in their family to ever go college and then grad school and (2) the school's merit scholarships provide a real incentive. Top 5% of your class after the first year-- and the rest of your school is essentially free.

It's a risk and many will fail---but when you have no other options--many are willing to do it. I say let them try. And I like that about the school. But I am working class stiff myself.

I know, personally, some that have succeeded. They scored **** on the LSAT and had crap for under grad resume. They also had kids, family problems, and were working in college. Bit now they older and ready for grad school. They are also at the top of the class because they worked their butt off. And that's impressive--b/c there are also people at the school who were admitted on full scholarship--who have very impressive resumes and high LSAT scores.

The school also has niche for people who have great legal resumes--high LSATS and undergrad GPA's--but also realize that $100K+ in debt at any law school is an anchor for the rest of their lives.

The wall street journal writes a bit on this--and I tend to agree.... Either get into a TOP law school--or go to one that will pay your way---> either with scholarship right off the bat--or if your earn it with merit scholarship along the way...

The cost of school is just too ridiculous... FCSL is no saint there. But that is, again, caused by the fiat dollars issued by the gov't's student loan programs bidding up the price of school tuition--> not totally FCSL's fault.

UF pays their professors the same, if not more, and their expenses are the same as well--UF just gets a direct government subsidy from Florida tax payers--> so instate tuition seems lower.... To the tax payer, though, tuition is fully paid for at FCSL rates!!!


As for the second comment--elitism... Read the background information in Grutter v. Bollinger, 539 U.S. 306 (2003)... The suit was basically a trial on the LSAT. Justice Thomas's comments are enlightening.

Law schools are totally elite. Not in terms of racial diversity. It is elite in terms of ideology. If you don't preach the (false) altruistic rhetoric on an application--I don't care what color you are--you ain't getting into law school!!!

If you don't get high LSAT score--you ain't going to a top school! Except a few minorities here and there... But again, these minorities are not diverse in thought. Go to any ivy league campus--I have spent some time at one--the students are black, white, asain, whatever--but 99% all Marxist. That ain't by coincidence. They are different all right; but all exactly the same!

I know for a fact FCSL--looks a bit beyond that... because my application letters, were, well--not altruistic. I am a non-apologetic capitalist. Maybe FCSL only cares about the color GREEN too.... I hope so. But anyway, at FCSL--the ideas and backgrounds of students are very diverse--in contrast to most any other law school campus...

I like that--and that is why I did not transfer--and I was excepted to far more prestigious schools (bull****ting on my application letters). The common guy off the street has a more realistic perspective of how the law is and should be -- than the trustfund brats who fill most law schools. Then again, I am the working class, first generation college grad, stiff that notices the difference.

[fcsl13]

I agree with you 100%. Even though I'm not sure that is the only factor (but it's certainly a significant factor). What other factors do you think might come into play?

(1) The world only NEEDS a few professors... But it's such a cushy job, academia has gotten into bed with gov't to creating too many overpaid professors. (2) There are as many administrators as professors (or teachers) at colleges (or k-12 gov't monopoly schools) now.

As tuition costs rise from over hiring and over paying--the gov't just increases it subsidies. Students don't even know how much money they are spending on tuition.

(3) The non-profit status of schools (and the NCAA, and political organizations) is ridiculous. There is nothing "non-profit" about the salaries and benefits of college employees and professors! Some of richest people in states are academic Deans and College Football/basketball coaches.

The tax exempt status kills competition. Gov't and "non-profit" academia have their own little cartel. FCSL could never compete b/c they will never accrue massive (bogusly tax free) endowments.

[fsquid]

jesus, you write long posts. Cliff notes anywhere?

[fcsl13]

learn to read.

[fcsl13]

you obviously aren't an attorney or a successful law student--if you consider that "long" reading... I can write that in about 10 minutes.