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Robyn, you're just a car person. Walkability will never be your thing, and that's okay. Maybe when your 85 and don't feel like driving anymore you can hire a chauffier.
Robyn, you're just a car person. Walkability will never be your thing, and that's okay. Maybe when your 85 and don't feel like driving anymore you can hire a chauffier.
If you don't have a car in most of Florida - including JAX - and aren't prepared to drive it - you will wind up living a very small limited life IMO. If I didn't have a car - I couldn't get downtown for arts - Riverside - San Marco - Avondale for restaurants/museums/shopping- out to county fairs - County Line Produce on 207 for fresh veggies - to the St. Johns Town Center - even to most of my doctors. For those of you inland - it means doing without the Beaches - or Mayo - or the Nights of a Thousand Lights and other things to do in St. Augustine. And what about the zoo? Ever take a bus to the zoo? Or Amelia Island/Fernandina Beach. Or a million other things in the extended metro area.
I have traveled extensively in big cities around the world - and - hate to tell you - JAX isn't Tokyo - or London or Paris or New York - where you can get to most places by subway/train/bus (in addition to walking). What is your ideal life in JAX without a car? Robyn
If you don't have a car in most of Florida - including JAX - and aren't prepared to drive it - you will wind up living a very small limited life IMO. If I didn't have a car - I couldn't get downtown for arts - Riverside - San Marco - Avondale for restaurants/museums/shopping- out to county fairs - County Line Produce on 207 for fresh veggies - to the St. Johns Town Center - even to most of my doctors. For those of you inland - it means doing without the Beaches - or Mayo - or the Nights of a Thousand Lights and other things to do in St. Augustine. And what about the zoo? Ever take a bus to the zoo? Or Amelia Island/Fernandina Beach. Or a million other things in the extended metro area.
I have traveled extensively in big cities around the world - and - hate to tell you - JAX isn't Tokyo - or London or Paris or New York - where you can get to most places by subway/train/bus (in addition to walking). What is your ideal life in JAX without a car? Robyn
No one is pretending you dont need a car in FL. The problem is that you need a car to do ANYTHING.
Owning a car isn't the issue (no one's telling you to give up your keys), its having to rely on it 100%. For most people, not just in FL but everywhere in the US, that's the reality. The "everyone over 16 gets their own car" mentality is the reason why sprawl is so outta control in our cities, its a big reason why we dont walk anymore, its a big reason why our public transportation system sucks compared to other countries, its a big reason why so many Americans are overweight, its a big reason why no one knows their neighbors & arent as social, its a big reason why our roads stay gridlocked, etc. It effects you in many ways you may not realize.
No one is pretending you dont need a car in FL. The problem is that you need a car to do ANYTHING.
Owning a car isn't the issue (no one's telling you to give up your keys), its having to rely on it 100%. For most people, not just in FL but everywhere in the US, that's the reality. The "everyone over 16 gets their own car" mentality is the reason why sprawl is so outta control in our cities, its a big reason why we dont walk anymore, its a big reason why our public transportation system sucks compared to other countries, its a big reason why so many Americans are overweight, its a big reason why no one knows their neighbors & arent as social, its a big reason why our roads stay gridlocked, etc. It effects you in many ways you may not realize.
Point being, it needs to change.
Oh - so what do you do without a car? I happen to walk a fair amount - but mostly for exercise - not necessarily to get from here to there.
And I think you are more than a bit hysterical about the side effects of cars. It's like everyone in cities where cars aren't used as often are best friends with their neighbors (WRONG!). Robyn
I've been to Europe maybe 20 times give or take - usually 2 to 4 week trips. New York - who knows? - a lot. Last trips were to Germany (3 weeks in Berlin/Munich/Cologne in 2007) - and Paris (just a week in 2008). Also spent 3 weeks in Japan (Tokyo/Osaka/Kyoto) in 2006. (We stayed domestic in 2009 - New York and Los Angeles and Atlanta and Detroit - the last 2 for family weddings). In Europe and Japan - every single person we dined with (about 8-10 friends I met on food chat boards) owned a car - even though it's really expensive to own/park cars in those places.
I have a couple of cousins who live in NYC (Manhattan/Staten Island) - and they have cars too. One who lives near Union Square was kind enough to pick up my 91 year old father at LGA when he attended a birthday party last year for his sister - my cousin's mother). And my father's sister - who lives in NYC - although too old to drive - uses a car/limo service to get around. And when we were in NYC last year - we had dinner with a friend who keeps a car on the UES (we had lunch and then he drove us to the Bronx Botanical Gardens).
IOW - I think you are confusing the availability of mass transportation for the masses - with how people who have enough money to own/use cars in major metro areas actually live. On my part - when I lived in center city Philadelphia - I didn't need a car to go to work - do normal shopping - etc. - but I nevertheless owned a car.
Note that I really loved the bullet train - Shinkansen - from Tokyo to Osaka - in Japan. High speed train in Germany from Berlin to Munich was nice - but the Shinkansen made it a hard act to follow. These aren't exactly cheap modes of transportation (high speed trains in these countries cost a lot more than discount flights). But they're a lot of fun (and very convenient for business travelers). Robyn
Last edited by nancy thereader; 03-24-2010 at 09:05 PM..
No one is pretending you dont need a car in FL. The problem is that you need a car to do ANYTHING.
Owning a car isn't the issue (no one's telling you to give up your keys), its having to rely on it 100%. For most people, not just in FL but everywhere in the US, that's the reality. The "everyone over 16 gets their own car" mentality is the reason why sprawl is so outta control in our cities, its a big reason why we dont walk anymore, its a big reason why our public transportation system sucks compared to other countries, its a big reason why so many Americans are overweight, its a big reason why no one knows their neighbors & arent as social, its a big reason why our roads stay gridlocked, etc. It effects you in many ways you may not realize.
Well, the cities will have to get their own thing going, but I'd first start connecting our cities together in a real way by regions, then spread out from there. I should be able to travel by train from Jax to New Orleans in less time it takes to drive there. But as it is now, Amtrak doesnt even have a "leg" from here to there. I'd have to go up to like NC or somewhere, then all the way back down, taking a full 24 hour train ride. Woo woo! Ridiculous. Plane travel needs competition too because they're terrible. Hopefully the new high speed rail plans that are underway in some areas (FL included) will jump start the rest of the country. The US is way behind with this though.
On a side note, I love how my original comment above was deleted but left intact in Robyn's reply to it. Thats classic. Someone needs to brush up on their CityData Mod skills. I wont name any names though, as that might be considered "rude".
Trains won't cut it financially in the US except perhaps in the NE corridor of the US (would make sense to improve service there IMO). I assume you're somewhat versed in the matter - and know that there are only 2 profitable high speed rail systems in the world. I've been on one - the Tokyo to Osaka route - which connects a city of 30+ million people to another city of 5+ million people. And each city has its own extensive rail system to get you from the main high speed rail station to other parts of town. The trip is about 350 miles (about half the distance from JAX to New Orleans) - and costs about $150 each way for a reserved second class seat (we went first class - you only go around once!). If you applied these numbers to JAX/New Orleans - you'd be talking $300 one way - and you'd have to rent a car at least on the JAX end (and on the New Orleans end as well if you weren't doing a French Quarter vacation type of trip).
Do these numbers make any sense to you at all?
Forgot to mention - Japanese high speed trains don't have much room for luggage. Most Japanese businessmen travel with a computer bag which holds perhaps an extra shirt and fresh underwear (hotels provide all manner of things from PJs to slippers to shaving kits). If you're a tourist with a fair amount of luggage - the norm is to send your bags by overnight courier to your next destination. Very efficient service - costs about $20/bag.
Of course - the bullet trains in Japan don't run between cities as small as JAX or New Orleans (there is train service - but it's a whole lot slower).
Assuming there was high speed rail in Florida - which routes would you use assuming it cost you $150 to travel every 350 miles - and how often would you use them (of course - you'd probably have to rent a car whatever your destination). Robyn
Trains won't cut it financially in the US except perhaps in the NE corridor of the US (would make sense to improve service there IMO). I assume you're somewhat versed in the matter - and know that there are only 2 profitable high speed rail systems in the world. I've been on one - the Tokyo to Osaka route - which connects a city of 30+ million people to another city of 5+ million people. And each city has its own extensive rail system to get you from the main high speed rail station to other parts of town. The trip is about 350 miles (about half the distance from JAX to New Orleans) - and costs about $150 each way for a reserved second class seat (we went first class - you only go around once!). If you applied these numbers to JAX/New Orleans - you'd be talking $300 one way - and you'd have to rent a car at least on the JAX end (and on the New Orleans end as well if you weren't doing a French Quarter vacation type of trip).
Do these numbers make any sense to you at all?
People who bring this point up always fail to mention the cost to us all to building & maintaining more roadways. You HAVE to do that, and also consider the fact that the airlines & all that goes into them are a huge HUGE loss (how many times have they been bailed out now?).
People who bring this point up always fail to mention the cost to us all to building & maintaining more roadways. You HAVE to do that, and also consider the fact that the airlines & all that goes into them are a huge HUGE loss (how many times have they been bailed out now?).
One big difference between roads and trains (apart from the way they're financed) is that roads are - with some exceptions like the Florida Turnpike - free and open to everyone whether you're driving a Rolls Royce or a beat up pick up truck. Long distance trains - and even commuter trains - cost a lot of money (to use - they cost tons to build). One general criticism of newer local commuter lines is that they cost everyone tax dollars - but mostly help middle or upper middle class people who live in wealthier suburban area to commute from where they live to where they work. Don't do much for working class people.
A more important point (which doesn't have to do with class warfare stuff - of which a lot is bogus IMO) is that older cities tend to be like donuts. Center where a lot of people work (and some people live) is in the middle. There's a ring around the center where people live. So you can design a hub and spoke system - which isn't that hard to do - and is relatively efficient. In newer cities in the US - there is no "middle" - or "ring". Sit down with a map of JAX - and tell me how you'd design a rail system in the metro area. So - for example - I could get from the Beaches or Riverside to Comcast (a fairly large employer) in Southpoint if I happened to work there. A system that would take less than an hour in travel time (it's usually a 20 minute drive for me).
As for intercity travel - I've lived in Florida for over 35 years now - and there is no place I can imagine going to in Florida where I wouldn't have to rent a car once I got there (either for business or pleasure). So I might as well drive and bring my own (except if I were going from perhaps Miami to Tallahassee or Pensacola). There is talk of a new line between Los Angeles and San Franciso. Might make sense on the San Franciso end (pretty small city). Would make no sense at all at the Los Angeles (Miami on steroids) end.
FWIW - don't get me started on airplane flights. I can remember when flying was both an adventure and a pleasure. Our last couple of flights have been real nightmares. No fun. Perhaps in my lifetime - Scotty will "beam me up" and I will never have to deal with another commercial airline. Robyn
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