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You can not stop progress but it seems a lot of blight, retail graveyards and diminishing neighborhoods are the by products of suburban sprawl.
As far as retail space goes, thank the internet and box stores for that.
When people need shoes, they don't go to Joe's Shoes. They go to Wal Mart or Target... Or Zappos.com.
There aren't enough restaurants, "We Buy Gold" places and hair salons to take up the enormous amount of retail space that was built up to accommodate a pre Internet / pre Wal Mart commercial world. In most places, they're just tearing a lot of it down. Large shopping malls are going the way of Drive In Theaters. Strip Malls are getting absolutely hammered.
Don't blame 'suburbal sprawl', though. The next time you go to Wal Mart or buy something off Amazon.com, you can blame yourself but really, there is no 'blame'. It's just changing times.
As far as retail space goes, thank the internet and box stores for that.
When people need shoes, they don't go to Joe's Shoes. They go to Wal Mart or Target... Or Zappos.com.
There aren't enough restaurants, "We Buy Gold" places and hair salons to take up the enormous amount of retail space that was built up to accommodate a pre Internet / pre Wal Mart commercial world. In most places, they're just tearing a lot of it down. Large shopping malls are going the way of Drive In Theaters. Strip Malls are getting absolutely hammered.
Don't blame 'suburbal sprawl', though. The next time you go to Wal Mart or buy something off Amazon.com, you can blame yourself but really, there is no 'blame'. It's just changing times.
I think it's pretty much a "chicken and egg" thing. I would like nothing more than a few amusing stores where I could browse on a hot summer afternoon - like a Sur La Table or a Crate & Barrel - but we don't have them here. And - when I actually want to buy a particular thing - it's often impossible to find the thing in a bricks and mortar store here - so I wind up buying on line (I bought my last 2 televisions on Amazon because the model I wanted wasn't sold in stores here).
Also - I think enclosed malls - although no longer fashionable - are very underrated. I was at the Town Center yesterday afternoon - and shopping there on a hot July afternoon is a miserable experience. Robyn
It's because a brick and mortar retailer cannot complete.
It's not like they didn't try, it's just that the purchasing power and supply chain efficiency of the mega retailers decimated their ability to complete.
People talk a big game about 'supporting local business' but in the end, very, very few people are willing to put their money where their mouth is and actually pay more for the same thing they can get cheaper at (X)mart or whatever.com.
High end boutique retail is its own thing, a touch of that survives and St Johns County has the right economic profile to support some of it but 'infrastructurally' speaking, the commercial real estate footprint in most places is crazily excessive given the storefront retail needs in the 21st Century yet their municipal taxation profile is very, very high, once viewed as the ultimate cash cow. All those empty spaces + that high tax bill = problems for retail space owners who can't find anchor tenants.
When I lived in Jacksonville in the 1970's, I lived part of the time in Arlington and loved living there. It was an upscale, vibrant neighborhood with many places to shop. Regency Square was the place and crime was almost non-existant. When I moved back to Jacksonville in 2002, I was shocked to see how shoddy Arlington had become, especially around the Arlington Expressway. I hear the crime is really bad these days (I moved away in 2008).
A neighborhood life cycle includes four basic phases: growth, maturity, decline and revitalization.
The growth of a neighborhood typically begins with the construction of residential dwellings along with a wide range of conveniently located support facilities.
A new neighborhood offers exciting possibilities for a homeowner: moving into a new home, interesting neighbors, newer shopping centers, restaurants and schools. As a neighborhood develops and grows, prices of residential properties typically follow suit. This phase typically ends when there is no longer any vacant land available to develop.
The maturity phase occurs when the neighborhood reaches the point of stability and begins to face competition from similar or newer neighborhoods. The pace of this phase is not always consistent and can vary based on saturation levels and market acceptance. Some neighborhoods may stay in the maturity phase for a seemingly indefinite period of time.
When neighborhoods begin the descent into decline, property values may begin to fall, as does the appeal and overall marketability for both residential and commercial use properties. The physical aging and deterioration of the structures as well as the aging of the population often contribute to the overall decline. As property values decline, "undesirable" businesses or property uses can now move in, and speed up the process of decline.
Now a critical point is reached. The neighborhood begins the process of either revitalization, or it dies as properties are literally vacated and begin decaying. If an older neighborhood is located near favored schools, transportation corridors, downtown, entertainment, natural resources, cultural or employment centers, it has a stronger potential for revitalization. What may have once been a neighborhood in decline becomes a desirable and sought after community that may increase in popularity as economic and social conditions change.
Much of Arlington is in the decline stage.
An example of growth would be Nocatee.
An example of maturity would be Julington Creek or Ortega.
Another example of decline would be Baymeadows, or parts of Mandarin.
An example of revitalization would be the Riverside (almost done) or Springfield (in the midst) historic districts.
It's because a brick and mortar retailer cannot complete.
It's not like they didn't try, it's just that the purchasing power and supply chain efficiency of the mega retailers decimated their ability to complete.
People talk a big game about 'supporting local business' but in the end, very, very few people are willing to put their money where their mouth is and actually pay more for the same thing they can get cheaper at (X)mart or whatever.com.
High end boutique retail is its own thing, a touch of that survives and St Johns County has the right economic profile to support some of it but 'infrastructurally' speaking, the commercial real estate footprint in most places is crazily excessive given the storefront retail needs in the 21st Century yet their municipal taxation profile is very, very high, once viewed as the ultimate cash cow. All those empty spaces + that high tax bill = problems for retail space owners who can't find anchor tenants.
Seen the Ponce Mall lately?
I've never been to the Ponce Mall. But - judging from the website - it looks depressing.
FWIW - I not only put my money where my mouth is/was - but my time as well. WRT to the TV I wound up buying on Amazon - I bought it first at Best Buy because BB had the model on the floor and I don't like to "showroom". When I got home and opened the box - the TV was obviously not new (all the little packages were open and the battery was in the remote). I brought it back to BB and asked for a new one. None in stock. Was told a new one would take a week. A week later - when the new one was supposed to be in - I came in to pick it up. It hadn't arrived - and delivery was now estimated to be at least another week. At that point - I gave up - and ordered on Amazon. Got the thing delivered to my door the next day (there's free 2 day shipping with Amazon Prime - and it costs about 5 bucks to upgrade to next day). This wasn't a large TV - but it wasn't tiny either. And it's definitely easier having home delivery than lugging a TV around.
Note that BB did the right thing by me IMO. It offered to discount what I had paid for the "used" TV. Gave me a refund (after dealing with 30 minutes of paperwork at the customer service desk). And a customer service rep gave me a $50 credit for my "trouble" (about 2 hours on the phone dealing with the issue). But the entire customer experience was one I could have done without.
At this point - I pretty much buy all electronics either on line or at Costco. Costco because the deals at Costco are often better than those available on line.
I agree with you 100% about there being much too much retail space in most parts of Florida. Especially in strip shopping centers (many are ghost towns these days). Robyn
A neighborhood life cycle includes four basic phases: growth, maturity, decline and revitalization.
The growth of a neighborhood typically begins with the construction of residential dwellings along with a wide range of conveniently located support facilities.
A new neighborhood offers exciting possibilities for a homeowner: moving into a new home, interesting neighbors, newer shopping centers, restaurants and schools. As a neighborhood develops and grows, prices of residential properties typically follow suit. This phase typically ends when there is no longer any vacant land available to develop.
The maturity phase occurs when the neighborhood reaches the point of stability and begins to face competition from similar or newer neighborhoods. The pace of this phase is not always consistent and can vary based on saturation levels and market acceptance. Some neighborhoods may stay in the maturity phase for a seemingly indefinite period of time.
When neighborhoods begin the descent into decline, property values may begin to fall, as does the appeal and overall marketability for both residential and commercial use properties. The physical aging and deterioration of the structures as well as the aging of the population often contribute to the overall decline. As property values decline, "undesirable" businesses or property uses can now move in, and speed up the process of decline.
Now a critical point is reached. The neighborhood begins the process of either revitalization, or it dies as properties are literally vacated and begin decaying. If an older neighborhood is located near favored schools, transportation corridors, downtown, entertainment, natural resources, cultural or employment centers, it has a stronger potential for revitalization. What may have once been a neighborhood in decline becomes a desirable and sought after community that may increase in popularity as economic and social conditions change.
Much of Arlington is in the decline stage.
An example of growth would be Nocatee.
An example of maturity would be Julington Creek or Ortega.
Another example of decline would be Baymeadows, or parts of Mandarin.
An example of revitalization would be the Riverside (almost done) or Springfield (in the midst) historic districts.
Pretty good outline IMO. With some exceptions. I think money factors a lot into whether a mature neighborhood ever declines. Coral Gables is one of the oldest residential neighborhoods in Florida. And - as a result of money in the area - most of it is as good or better today than it was 30 years ago. JAX has a lot less money. Which means less available for a place like Coral Gables.
There are racial issues at work in various places too. I don't think that anyone here has mentioned that Arlington - when it first popped up - was a "white flight suburb". Now it has a large black population. Which results in "white flight" to other areas.
Also - I think that lesser parts of Riverside IMO are still not so hot these days. And a fair amount of Ortega isn't so hot either (at least not the part near the water that I drive through every once in a while). Also that "historic Springfield" is such a small part of the general area in that part of town that it's pretty insignificant.
Another overlooked factor is the role the Beaches play here vis-a-vis the rest of town. Our winters aren't conducive to "snowbirds". And the first part of JTB wasn't opened until 1979 - and JTB wasn't completed until 1997. All of which meant that development in south JAX Beach and PVB lagged far behind most beach development in other parts of Florida (perhaps only counties like Levy County were later to the game/never got to the game at all).
Anyway - you raise some interesting points that provide a framework for discussion. Robyn
The suburbs aren't the middle-class haven many imagine them to be as new numbers show 16.5 million suburban Americans are living beneath the poverty line.
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It’s easy to pin the growth of concentrated and suburban poverty on the recession, but the spread of poverty throughout the U.S. has broader and more varied explanations. The numbers of suburban poor have been swelled by low-income residents who might once have lived in urban cores, but have been priced out of gentrifying cities, and have moved into affordable housing more prevalent in the suburbs.
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“Suburban areas are no longer just homes to middle- and upper-income households,” says University of New Hampshire demographer Ken Johnson. “There were always poor suburbs, but much of the outflow of population from urban cores to suburbs has historically been middle- and upper-income. That is less true now.”
There are racial issues at work in various places too. I don't think that anyone here has mentioned that Arlington - when it first popped up - was a "white flight suburb". Now it has a large black population. Which results in "white flight" to other areas.
This thread got my attention because of this.
When I worked for AT&T downtown (2009), the office was about 80% African American, as is common at "the phone company". Occupational AND management. Around 90 people.
The job pays $1000 per week plus every benefit known to man BEFORE sales compensation. You can reach 6 figures there if you are the best.
Some people like me were re-locators from "up North". Prior experience almost like a transfer but some of us came from Verizon. (same job, really). Some of them came from MY area Philly.
I noticed that VERY VERY VERY many employees lived in Arlington. Even the relocation people (99% women). A handful lived in Bay Meadows, but they hated the commute. You CAN NOT BE LATE there or you get fired.
I was pretty surprised and it was somewhat clarified when they told me their boyfriends chose the neighborhood AND that there were rent incentives like cheap for 6 months or no security or whatnot.
Made no financial sense to me because they certainly could have afforded an apartment in North San Marco or even Riverside or AT LEAST downtown Springfieldish. AND no commute to speak of. Or that St Nicks area. Especially with two incomes (not sure that was all that common).
I have to assume it's just cultural; people pick areas where they feel they "fit in" even if it's not really true that they won't fit in elsewhere... (considering The Strand was 50% minority at the time, I'd say).
I've driven through Arlington alot and noticed another unusual thing. LOTS of men walking babies in strollers all over the place. You don't see that every day! It was so frequent that it was like a game I played "oh lets see how many guys are walking babies today". I even watched to see were there really BABIES in the strollers and not sports equipment or something LOL.
At least in Jacksonville (and many other areas of the US too - including a lot of those really old suburbs like Arlington) - like I said - there's a large racial component to this stuff. The elephant in the room that most people don't want to talk about. Arlington was the "white flight" place - maybe 40 years ago or so? And - today - St. Johns County is the white flight place. At least when it comes to people with kids in public school. And the people replacing the white middle class in places like Arlington are mostly lower income - mostly minority (mostly black).
I think fsu813 is right as far as he goes. Places like Arlington are getting poorer. But it's not because the people who live there have changed. It's just that a different kind of people live there now than 30-50 years ago. Robyn
I grew up in Arlington and my father still lives there. Growing up in our neighborhood it was predominantly white. Our house was on the west side of Rogero. As I got older, the area from University north of Merrill all the way to Rogero became increasingly black. There was significant crime around the Justina area. Interestingly enough, not more than a few miles away upper middle class homes could be found in Fairway Forrest or Colony Cove. After I moved out and went to college, the neighborhood they lived in started turning predominantly black even though home prices were on the rise in the neighborhood. Interestingly enough after the financial crisis the neighborhood started becoming increasingly white again.
I went to Terry Parker high and my freshmen year we were 30 percent black. When I graduated we were 60 percent black.
One of the things about many of those homes in that area is that they were built in the 50's and 60's. Some of those cinder block homes are the best built homes in terms of being able to withstand hurricanes and the Florida weather. They just don't build them like that anymore.
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