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Of course you can't stand 'that attitude'.
'That attitude' is something ideologues and idealists 'can't stand' because it's based on that nagging part of the discussion that keeps their well-intentioned ideas from bearing fruit.
Reality.
Sure, we should start moving towards lessening out dependence on oil.
What I would ask of you is to propose a time frame as to when that might happen? If we were to implement every single idea the "anti big oil" types promote, how long and how much are we looking at?
When the national infrastructure is adequately retooled to be powered with wind or solar or electric of fairy dust and we can put an X on a calendar and say "Here. Here's the day we can do it and this is how much it's going to cost"
THAT is the problem your side has. It's the nuts and bolts. Yes, it's easy to espouse some child-like ideal using sweeping notions and magic bullet type cure-alls that seem to work OK as a sound-byte (since they're usually light on fact), but when you break down the math, it's a different story.
So, propose to me what sort of outlay we're looking at to retool our existing 'oil' infrastructure into something better. Remember: we are no longer living in the "infinite free money to indulge whatever whim we please" era that we've enjoyed for the past 30 years. If you're going to propose an idea, then at least give me a ROUGH idea of what that idea is going to cost.
Have you been living under a rock??
It's not fairy dust or fiction. Do you not recall the electric cars of the 90s? Have never heard of the California mandates on electric autos? Rapid charging stations they installed? You haven't heard of anything?
You haven't heard or seen the wind turbines and solar panels out there generating electricity?? Really??
Ideological? Yes. Fantasy? No. It's here, and it's being killed by the oil and some energy companies. If you can't see how they've tried to, and in much respect have succeeded, in killing it all the past two decades you are either 1) Far too young to know about it or 2) Just don't care to learn.
I've posted links on this thread where you can find information about things like the electric cars. You might also look up information on a man named T. Boone Pickens. Here's a link, hopefully you'll take a look: http://www.pickensplan.com/index.php
The only reality here is people like you that refuse to open your eyes. You're stuck on one mode and that's "No."
This is not the American spirit this country was founded on. This is not the spirit that lead us to become such a great nation. I only pray that there are more out there like me that know we can do anything if we only stand together and put our minds to it.
It's not fairy dust or fiction. Do you not recall the electric cars of the 90s? Have never heard of the California mandates on electric autos? Rapid charging stations they installed? You haven't heard of anything?
You haven't heard or seen the wind turbines and solar panels out there generating electricity?? Really??
Ideological? Yes. Fantasy? No. It's here, and it's being killed by the oil and some energy companies. If you can't see how they've tried to, and in much respect have succeeded, in killing it all the past two decades you are either 1) Far too young to know about it or 2) Just don't care to learn.
I've posted links on this thread where you can find information about things like the electric cars. You might also look up information on a man named T. Boone Pickens. Here's a link, hopefully you'll take a look: http://www.pickensplan.com/index.php
The only reality here is people like you that refuse to open your eyes. You're stuck on one mode and that's "No."
This is not the American spirit this country was founded on. This is not the spirit that lead us to become such a great nation. I only pray that there are more out there like me that know we can do anything if we only stand together and put our minds to it.
I see your POV.....my take was not coming fronm that angle. I was coming more so from an economic development standpoint. Hey if a company that built lithium batteries for electric cars was to start in Jax I say I support that also. Am not anti gas, but I am anti everyone using gas all the time, when there are other options.
I see your POV.....my take was not coming fronm that angle. I was coming more so from an economic development standpoint. Hey if a company that built lithium batteries for electric cars was to start in Jax I say I support that also. Am not anti gas, but I am anti everyone using gas all the time, when there are other options.
Absolutely. There are other ways to promote economic development and energy use.
I really doubt a lot of the people here would be willing to get out there are work on a oil rig. That is a dangerous, hard labor job. Few are cut out for it.
Not only that, but the potential to destroy the tourism industry, an industry that FL depends on so heavily, puts others at risk and thus the whole FL economy.
Our front page today was the oil spill in the Gulf. They say the winds are changing and will be pushing the oil close to the shore of LA. It said there's already 1800 square miles of oil spilled out there. More is gushing out every day. The spill is larger then the state of Rhode Island.
Hopefully people will wake up and realize that yes, spills do still happen. It's not some tree hugging mantra against oil, it's the truth.
We simply cannot afford to put ourselves at risk like this.
The simple fact of the matter is there is no great simple cheap risk-free solution. As for the electric car thing - I read recently that the EPA is coming up with new ways to calculate mileage claims for plug in electric cars - because the old way didn't take into account the fact that when you plug in the cars to recharge them - they use electricity - which is a form of power (it isn't free - and has to be produced somehow/somewhere).
Doesn't mean that we shouldn't have started a *long* time ago to try different things - see what their upsides/downsides are - and develop/refine them if they make sense. On my part - I think we should drill in the US (there are risks - but I'm probably more at risk from a hurricane than an oil spill if a rig was built off Jax Beach). I also think we should revive nuclear plants. I am kind of skeptical about wind power - but am willing to give that a chance as soon as those rich guys allow them to be installed in the waters off Massachusetts.
There are other options as well - like hydropower and geothermal (which work a lot better in some places than others - Iceland uses a lot of geothermal - but I'm not sure I'd want geothermal if it meant having an active volcano in my backyard). Solar panels as well in certain places for certain applications. I will note that I once did a little work on solar panels - and can find no evidence of any that are approved for our wind codes in Florida (I'm not sure I'd want anything on my roof that would provide an opportunity for the wind to lift up my roof).
Anyway - it seems to me that a lot of what little has been done in the last 30 years has been done mostly on the basis of politics - not science or industrial science. We allow NIMBY or BANANA to rule our energy decisions. We give a tax credit here - a tax credit there - but don't have coherent policies that encourage change or even experimentation on a large scale by large entities - like utility companies (and by policies I don't mean tax credits that encourage technologies that aren't and can never be profitable). Robyn
The simple fact of the matter is there is no great simple cheap risk-free solution. As for the electric car thing - I read recently that the EPA is coming up with new ways to calculate mileage claims for plug in electric cars - because the old way didn't take into account the fact that when you plug in the cars to recharge them - they use electricity - which is a form of power (it isn't free - and has to be produced somehow/somewhere).
I don't think this is true at all. If you looked at the PC 20-25 years ago, they cost megabucks. Now how much can you get a computer for? $300? $200? Far cheaper.
The thing is, technology becomes cheaper over time. Even though you plug in an electric car, there are numerous other ways to produce electricity besides oil. Coal (which we have tons of,) wind, solar, hydro, geothermal, nuclear, natural gas, and I'm sure I'm leaving out some. Why depend on foreign, terrorist harboring nations to provide the majority of our transportation fuel? Why be at their mercy?
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Doesn't mean that we shouldn't have started a *long* time ago to try different things - see what their upsides/downsides are - and develop/refine them if they make sense. On my part - I think we should drill in the US (there are risks - but I'm probably more at risk from a hurricane than an oil spill if a rig was built off Jax Beach). I also think we should revive nuclear plants. I am kind of skeptical about wind power - but am willing to give that a chance as soon as those rich guys allow them to be installed in the waters off Massachusetts.
We did, though. The problem is, and I keep saying it over and over, big oil lines the pockets of our politicians and has major lobbyist working for them. Check out the film, "Who Killed the Electric Car." It's really eye opening. You probably remember yourself the EV's in the news back in the 90's, California mandates, charging stations, etc. Batteries have improved drastically since then. The technology is here... the problem is getting people to adapt to something they're not used to and also getting big oils iron grip off of us.
T. Boone Pickens used to be in the oil industry and is now working extensively with wind. Wind is viable. Does it have problems? Yes, problems like birds getting killed, noise and height are all problems, but is it better then relying on Saudi Arabia? Yes. And why do I say Saudi Arabia when only a small percentage of oil is used for commercial power? Because with wind and electric cars we can generate both household power and electricity to charge cars, thus cutting countries like Saudi Arabia out of our energy picture, thus bringing more jobs and prosperity back to the US of A.
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There are other options as well - like hydropower and geothermal (which work a lot better in some places than others - Iceland uses a lot of geothermal - but I'm not sure I'd want geothermal if it meant having an active volcano in my backyard). Solar panels as well in certain places for certain applications. I will note that I once did a little work on solar panels - and can find no evidence of any that are approved for our wind codes in Florida (I'm not sure I'd want anything on my roof that would provide an opportunity for the wind to lift up my roof).
Solar panels do work and Florida has numerous homes with solar panels. New developments like solar panel shingles, Search Results
could provide a major benefit to states like Florida.
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Anyway - it seems to me that a lot of what little has been done in the last 30 years has been done mostly on the basis of politics - not science or industrial science. We allow NIMBY or BANANA to rule our energy decisions. We give a tax credit here - a tax credit there - but don't have coherent policies that encourage change or even experimentation on a large scale by large entities - like utility companies (and by policies I don't mean tax credits that encourage technologies that aren't and can never be profitable). Robyn
Most of what has been done in the past 30 years has been when times were tough. When oil has been cheap and times good, you don't see Americans out there demanding something be done. It's only when the times get tough do the lazy get going.
We need to demand change NOW. Notice how quiet it got when oil went from $4 a gallon back into the $1.XX range and even now as it hovers below $3. Does that mean the problem was solved? Heck no. We can't get complacent when times are good, we must demand change and must make it stick.
Our front page today was the oil spill in the Gulf. They say the winds are changing and will be pushing the oil close to the shore of LA. It said there's already 1800 square miles of oil spilled out there. More is gushing out every day. The spill is larger then the state of Rhode Island.
Hopefully people will wake up and realize that yes, spills do still happen. It's not some tree hugging mantra against oil, it's the truth.
We simply cannot afford to put ourselves at risk like this.
OMG, how can we even let this happen.
I belong to the Sierra Club and even us in NH have been fighting this battle re: the South East coast for several years on the behalf of the whales and, of course, the dangers as we are seeing in the Gulf of Mexico. If what's happening right now doesn't convince us to look elsewhere to "fuel" our needs, I don't know what will.
Most certainly the damage from the Gulf oil slick will cost us Billions more than whatever benefits would have been derived from the Oil Wells. America's National Gross Product (NGP), and how we use our future tax dollars will most certainly be affected ie: subsidizing for the losses of shrimp, etc.
I forgot about coal. Even though "clean coal" is still kind of dirty.
As for Pickens - his biggest interest is in natural gas. And his interest is financial - just like the big oil guys.
Coconut1 - where do you think those guys in California will get the electricity to power their electric cars? FWIW - I am not from California - but was there last fall. Didn't see a whole lot of electric cars - or places to charge them for that matter. Robyn
Oil spill in the gulf,
Bye bye to drill, baby, drill.
Sanity prevails.
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