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So - in short - I have nothing against urbanization. I'm all in favor of it. I'd love to see a vital downtown JAX. But I don't see how building rail lines that are easy escape/commuting routes to/from urban areas does anything to encourage urbanization or infill. They are - IMO - heavily subsidized ways to enable middle class people to move out of cities - even inner suburbs. We don't want cities to be only a small cluster of relatively rich people in the middle - surrounded by slums of lower class people - and then surrounded by the suburbs and exurbs where all the middle class people live.
And we don't even have the cluster of rich people in the center. Instead - we have some people in areas like Riverside and Springfield who put condo commandos to shame. We were seriously interested in Riverside when we first moved here. But I'd rather deal with our ARB than RAP any day. And whereas PVB has grown a ton in the 15 years we've been here - Riverside has pretty much stayed the same - although a lot of the houses are perhaps a bit worse for wear (older residents would rather do nothing than deal with RAP). My attitude about infill development is more pragmatic than dogmatic. Which puts me in a very small minority when it comes to "Historic JAX". I would rather have these infill areas filled with stuff that's not historically correct than dead.
And note Simms - my husband and I lived and worked in Center Philadelphia when we got out of school. We were far from upper middle class - but prices were different back then. We were earning $19k/year between the 2 of us - but a 1 bedroom luxury apartment cost $280/month. A parking space was an extra $20. Things are a lot different now.
Finally - I ran across this "think tank" report about JAX a while back (looking for something else):
Apart from the normal marketing gobbledygook - the 2 major recommendations were to improve the quality of our work force through education and to improve our race relations. I'm all in favor of both (although whether either is doable is questionable IMO). Robyn
Thanks. I'm optimistic most times about this, but a big part of me thinks it'll be a pretty long while before Jax realizes these things. I mean, we seem like the most complacent, least progressive city in FL, even though we're the biggest. A lot of times I feel like we're part of rural southern GA instead of the rest of the big cities of FL.
Take the Florida high speed rail project for instance. We're the only city in the state thats not getting on that thing & we have nothing but ourselves & our leaders to blame for it. We seem to miss the boat on so many things. There's basically zero tourism outside of the beaches areas, our core is probably the most lifeless out of all the FL cities, we're probably gonna lose our football franchise, etc. So I dunno. We have A LOT that needs fixing pronto. Like major stuff. And so far, all I see is talk from our leaders & nothing else really significant.
But then you know, thats what a lot of people like about here. They like that laid back, slow paced suburbia car-centric lifestyle. And thats fine, there's nothing wrong with that. But like I said earlier, when thats mostly ALL you have, not an attractive & real "city" does that make for the future.
Just curious. Have you ever lived anywhere else in Florida? We've been in the state for 35 years. Lived in Miami a pretty long time. Spent lots of time traveling in other parts of the state (mostly business - some pleasure). Can you tell me anything specific that you like about another part of Florida (apart from the fact that the winters are usually nicer in south Florida - that's one of the few things I miss about south Florida - the weather - another is Bloomingdales)? What are you looking for?
FWIW - I can't think of a single area in Florida where middle or upper middle class people live that isn't "suburban" and car-centric (even if you live in a high rise in a place like Miami/Dade - which we did - you need a car). It's just the way the state (and most parts of the country) are.
And although I agree with you that downtown JAX is pretty bad - I don't think downtown Miami or Orlando or Tampa is any better. I go back to Miami a fair amount for business reasons - and never go downtown.
Re the high speed rail line. The initial phase will be between downtown Orlando and downtown Tampa. How many times will anyone do that? Best I can figure out - all it will do is enable Orlando to "slurb" to the west in terms of bedroom communities. I already know people who commute from Deland to Orlando to work. Pretty soon - Orlando will be the "slurb" that ate central Florida. We looked at the Orlando area before we moved here. Thanks but no thanks.
You know - one thing the JAX area has going for it in Florida is it's usually last in everything. Sounds silly - but it isn't. Because we can learn from the mistakes made in larger urban areas like the MiamiDade/Broward/Palm Beach Counties slurb - and the Orlando slurb. But - instead of learning - we seem heck bent on emulating them. They're beyond hope now IMO. We aren't. Robyn
Robyn, I just can't argue the facts with you if you don't want to see them. I have been in Riverside far longer than you and it is much improved over when you first moved here 15 years ago. 1661, Chelsea Lofts, new restaurants, a rehabbed 5 points/5 Points Theaters, Walkers, a new location for Whiteway, VillaRiva, expanded St. Vincent's; Riverside was almost a ghetto compared to what it is today. That statement alone says to me that you are either lying or you don't know what you are talking about. Urban infill in RIverside has happened without public transportation because of the layout and the fact that it was already urban. Even more could happen WITH public transportation. In the suburbs WITH public transportation Tapestry Parks would spring up all over the place (and mini Town Centers) and other mixed use, denser developments around stations. The JTA put out a study with a feasible implementation of commuter rail running from downtown on the FEC rails to St. Augustine, and a stop was labelled near San Marco where there is a closed car dealership now (towards Phillips Highway). An outside company thought that the city might get the ball rolling and it put out plans for a high density mixed use development for right there even without any approvals or funding of the commuter rail.
A higher density development means more taxes for the city, which means we have more money. It also attracts people like me who want to live in a real breathing city rather than live in bland sprawl in our car, sitting in traffic. This development will undoubtedly not happen, so I'll save you the typing, but it's an example of how many people would jump at this opportunity to put higher density mixed use along stations along rail. JTA is currently funded for downtown BRT (bus rapid transit) to be expanded in all directions (instead of rail). It could end up costing more than commuter rail, and it will be dedicated busways. Nobody wants to ride a bus, even it it's a glorified bus, and busways have more often than not blighted areas and destroyed development opportunities. They definitely haven't promoted developments such as this.
Also, rail has proven to promote urban development in the form of TODs everywhere it has been implemented, even in Miami (Kendall Town Center is like one giant TOD, have you seen it recently?, also Villages of Merrick Park, same thing), which has perhaps the worst system of every city. D.C. is the best example. I think you are wayyyyy out of it. Face it, you don't know what you are talking about on this subject. Rail is by no means a way to get middle class people out of an urban core; that's the silliest statement I think I have heard from you. It can be argued that rail brings poor people into a core, but it also can/does bring middle class, suburbanites, and even some upper class depending on how good the system is into the core. Some people may be retired or work on the Southside and use a car almost everywhere, but if they wanted to see the Symphony or an Opera downtown, it's very convenient just to take the train in. Other people might want to ditch the car and take the train, giving them time to read the newspaper on the way in (or a book).
And KerryB, you and I are clearly on the same page here for the most part, but the Florida High Speed Rail has yet to prove itself as a project worthy of our taxpayer dollars to me. The first leg runs between just NE of downtown Tampa (Kinda between Tampa and Ybor) to Disney (Lake Buena Vista). It never goes through downtown Orlando, cuts East, and the exact route to connect to Miami has yet to be determined. Jacksonville is on the list to be connected, after Miami. The term "high speed" here in the US and FL is closer to the 120 MPH Acela in the Northeast than the 220 MPH + high speed trains in Europe, Japan, or other places.
Lastly, I would rather emulate cities (ironically Atlanta included) to our north than our peers in FL. The FL cities really have almost nothing to be proud of regarding public transportation and land planning.
But I don't see how building rail lines that are easy escape/commuting routes to/from urban areas does anything to encourage urbanization or infill.
And we don't even have the cluster of rich people in the center. Instead - we have some people in areas like Riverside and Springfield who put condo commandos to shame. We were seriously interested in Riverside when we first moved here. But I'd rather deal with our ARB than RAP any day. And whereas PVB has grown a ton in the 15 years we've been here - Riverside has pretty much stayed the same - although a lot of the houses are perhaps a bit worse for wear (older residents would rather do nothing than deal with RAP).
(like shooting ducks in barrel)
I can give you, oh, I don't know, 50 references to the positive impact of rail if you like, including many academic studies.
There are many "rich" people that live near the the center of the city. More than a cluster.
RAP only has a say in outside (facade) structural modifciations to properties. And, btw, has added much, much, much value to the area. Most residents will never have an unpleasant exchange with them at all, and they were established by an overwhelming majority vote.
Riverside has changed, drastically...extremely drastically, over the past 15 years. This cannot be overstated. The # of restored houses has increased drastically along with this, not coincidentially.
I don't understand why people comment about this they are ignorant about.
As you have pointed out, one of the worst public train systems. For those who want to know, Miami's metrorail is considered HRT (heavy rail transit), the same as Atlanta, DC, Chicago, Philly, Boston, New York, and LA. Miami's system is elevated. It is 22.4 miles starting in Kendall south of Miami, going straight up US 1 to the Brickell area, through the back end of downtown and curving west all the way to the Hialeah area. It opened in 1984 (first leg) and currently has about 70,000 daily riders. It connects with the MetroMover in Brickell (which itself has 30,000 riders and is similar to our skyway). MetroRail is by far the least heavily travelled HRT systems in the country (MARTA in Atlanta has almost 300,000 daily rail riders, and it falls short of the other systems mentioned). Keep in mind HRT is largely unfeasible nowadays, so cities are investing in LRT (light rail) and street cars (and commuter rail, i.e. DMT, etc).
Anyway, more about Metrorail: there are 22 accessible stations. They connect to the Tri-Rail at one point (70 mile commuter rail linking Miami to Ft. Lauderdale to West Palm Beach with 18 stations and 20,000 daily riders) and connects twice to the MetroMover. It also connects 3 hospitals, Dadeland Mall, University of Miami, several community colleges, Merrick Park, other mixed use TODs, countless condos and apartments, shops, dining, districts, etc. Most stations have a garage for park and ride.
Here are some pictures:
Furthest south station at Kendall:
http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/TOD%20Examples%20from%20Bing/kendallTOD1.jpg (broken link)
Next station also in Kendall connecting to the Dadeland Mall:
http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/TOD%20Examples%20from%20Bing/kendallTOD2.jpg (broken link)
A station in Brickell:
http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/TOD%20Examples%20from%20Bing/miamiTOD6.jpg (broken link)
Civic Center? The Miami Art Museum located here to be close to the station:
http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/TOD%20Examples%20from%20Bing/miamiTOD7.jpg (broken link)
One of 3 hospitals connected (South Miami hospital, Cedars Medical Center, Jackson Memorial pictured):
http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/TOD%20Examples%20from%20Bing/miamiTOD8.jpg (broken link)
And a bonus of Lindbergh in Atlanta. Atlanta's system is pretty dismal when compared to the northern cities, but is light years better than Miami's and connects so many more places and people:
http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/TOD%20Examples%20from%20Bing/atltod1.jpg (broken link)
See this link for before and afters of various systems in the country to see what kind of density and developments rail spurs. Cities as small as Kenosha are included.
Are you pointing to Dadeland as a good example of anything? If so - I have nothing more to say to you - because Dadeland is basically a boring suburban development on steroids. And kind of proves the point I was trying to make about these rail systems. It's 11 miles from downtown Miami (a drive which can easily take an hour these days). While parts (or most) of Overtown 11 blocks north from downtown Miami are totally blighted.
In fact - Kendall's primary attractions (Kendall is the residential area that is next to Dadeland to the west) are that it's middle class - white - most people speak English (although they can be of Hispanic ancestry) and the schools are ok. It is supposed to incorporate soon as a separate city (a big trend in Miami/Dade - any area that has any money doesn't want to have anything to do with the financial problems of the City of Miami or the county).
(Note also that if one goes east from Dadeland - well it's some of the most expensive non-waterfront property in the whole county. And once you get to the water - in places like Gable Estates - about 3 miles to the east - you're talking houses that cost millions (a fair number in the $10+ million range).
And for those who don't know - TOD = transit oriented development. It's kind of a developer's wet dream. Being able to build really dense stuff on relatively cheap land in the suburbs. It is not my cup of tea.
My impression is people move here to get away from things like this. I know I did in part. And to look for something else. We have many neighborhoods that offer different things to people who want different things. And although I and FSU813 are very different in terms of our ideal places to live - I think I can speak for him/her in saying that Dadeland makes his/her eyes hurt (it makes mine hurt too). I don't think this is the vision either of us has for the metro area. Robyn
I'm late (very) in joining the thread but wanted to add that rather than throw hundreds of millions of dollars into rail infrastructure, cities such as Jacksonville would benefit more from Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) versus shiny new rail systems, which offer far less flexibility in terms of proposed routes and higher cost-to-use ratios. Bus rapid transit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Re Riverside - I don't live there. Just would go there for lunch - some shopping. And the shops there have had problems in recent years (ditto with San Marco). Perhaps it's a function of the economy in general as much as anything. Also - a lot of shops in Riverside opened branches out here at the Beaches in recent years. No reason to go across town when I can go to the same shops here. Perhaps some of these places have spread themselves too thin?
And FSU813 - exterior includes things like windows. I know one young couple who were rehabbing a not especially historic - not especially attractive - not very expensive house in Riverside. They are energy efficiency nuts. And were tearing their hair out about RAP's requirements that they keep the old "historic" leaking windows instead of ripping them out and installing energy efficient ones (one can get historically correct energy efficient windows - but they cost a ton). And according to what they said (don't know if they were telling me the truth) - RAP also gave them a hard time about installing a contemporary looking kitchen from IKEA which you could see from outside.
IOW - there are tensions between "historical correctness" - "energy efficiency correctness" - etc. - etc. Like I said - we did look seriously at Riverside. But we were too old to be "urban homesteaders". And I also hate dealing with contractors and review boards (although we did wind up building a new house - it's easier than redoing an older place - which I've done before).
Anyway - this younger couple was doing work on their house at the height of the real estate boom. When RAP could basically dictate whatever it wanted. I would love to see the rules loosened up a bit now (particularly since the HELOC and insurance markets are tough today) - to encourage people like these young people to "redo" places. There are a ton of foreclosures these days in a lot of the JAX neighborhoods you like. Pretty good prices. Let's get these younger people into these houses - and let them bring these houses into the 21st century. The most important thing IMO is building a neighborhood - not a house. Robyn
And Simms - Reckon you don't know much about Miami. Those hospitals you pointed out. Well Cedars is across the street from JMH. But JMH - the public hospital - is on the verge of bankruptcy - and Cedars was the hospital that UM bought (and where most UM doctors practice these days) when JMH started to go over the cliff. As for South Miami Hospital - that's on US1 and Sunset Drive (SW 72nd Street) - far away from both JMH and Cedars. Robyn
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Some TOD examples IN MIAMI
