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Old 10-03-2010, 08:18 AM
 
33,242 posts, read 27,970,010 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
You are nuts. The "small" turbines may burn less fuel than a "large" turbine but it is an inefficient way to power anything on the ground.

If what you say is true, why are diesel electric trains using recip-diesel engines vs. turbines? Why do emergency power generators use recip-diesel engines?

Turbines make sense when used in aircraft in the higher elevations. This allows greatly reduced fuel burn combined with less drag in the air to provide an efficient yet quick form of power. Also, turbines can provide much more power than a reciprocating engine could ever think of producing. Not an issue for cars.

Not to mention, if those really are turbines, do you have any idea how loud they would be?
you are trying to compare apples and oranges here. diesel electric generators are used in large applications where you need lots of electricity, and yes in those applications a turbine would in fact be quite inefficient. however the turbines used in the concept car are very small, about the size used in radio controlled model aircraft.

as for the noise, much of that can be attenuated through the design of the compressor and turbine wheels, and with a proper exhaust system, since the vehicle is not dependent on the thrust of the turbine to push the vehicle forward.

as for fuel consumption, do you really think turbine technology has remained static since the 40's? if so then you need an education about modern turbines. for instance the F16 uses 1/3 the fuel that the old F86 did, in fact the F15 uses less fuel the the old F86 did, and the F15 has two engines to feed. and the F22 raptor uses less fuel than the F15 does. technology does not stand still, and newer designs are far more efficient than the old days.
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Old 10-04-2010, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Pikesville, MD
5,229 posts, read 12,302,717 times
Reputation: 4846
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
You are nuts. The "small" turbines may burn less fuel than a "large" turbine but it is an inefficient way to power anything on the ground.

If what you say is true, why are diesel electric trains using recip-diesel engines vs. turbines? Why do emergency power generators use recip-diesel engines?

Turbines make sense when used in aircraft in the higher elevations. This allows greatly reduced fuel burn combined with less drag in the air to provide an efficient yet quick form of power. Also, turbines can provide much more power than a reciprocating engine could ever think of producing. Not an issue for cars.

Not to mention, if those really are turbines, do you have any idea how loud they would be?
Youre so right. No one has been doing development work on small turbines, and the engineers here were deaf to start with, so they don't actually know how much noise microturbines make.

Or maybe you really don't kow what you're talking about.

Something to read that hopefully you'll be able to understand:

http://www.bioturbine.org/Publicatio...01-HILTECH.pdf

And from Wiki:

Quote:
Microturbines are becoming widespread for distributed power and combined heat and power applications. They are one of the most promising technologies for powering hybrid electric vehicles. They range from hand held units producing less than a kilowatt, to commercial sized systems that produce tens or hundreds of kilowatts.

Part of their success is due to advances in electronics, which allows unattended operation and interfacing with the commercial power grid. Electronic power switching technology eliminates the need for the generator to be synchronized with the power grid. This allows the generator to be integrated with the turbine shaft, and to double as the starter motor.

Microturbine systems have many advantages over reciprocating engine generators, such as higher power-to-weight ratio, extremely low emissions and few, or just one, moving part. Advantages are that microturbines may be designed with foil bearings and air-cooling operating without lubricating oil, coolants or other hazardous materials. Microturbines also have a further advantage of having the majority of the waste heat contained in the relatively high temperature exhaust making it simpler to capture, whereas the waste heat of reciprocating engines is split between its exhaust and cooling system. However, reciprocating engine generators are quicker to respond to changes in output power requirement and are usually slightly more efficient, although the efficiency of microturbines is increasing. Microturbines also lose more efficiency at low power levels than reciprocating engines. When used in vehicles the static efficiency drawback is negated by the superior power-to-weight ratio - the vehicle does not have to move a heavy engine and transmission.

They accept most commercial fuels, such as gasoline, natural gas, propane, diesel, and kerosene as well as renewable fuels such as E85, biodiesel and biogas.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Micro_turbine.jpg (broken link)

Microturbines may soon replace diesel engines as generators in locomotives and busses, too.
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Old 10-04-2010, 12:37 PM
 
12,872 posts, read 22,694,137 times
Reputation: 13042
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc63 View Post
Youre so right. No one has been doing development work on small turbines, and the engineers here were deaf to start with, so they don't actually know how much noise microturbines make.

Or maybe you really don't kow what you're talking about.

Something to read that hopefully you'll be able to understand:

http://www.bioturbine.org/Publicatio...01-HILTECH.pdf

And from Wiki:




Microturbines may soon replace diesel engines as generators in locomotives and busses, too.
That link re-stated what I said - not sure how I was "wrong". In fact I wasn't. Turbines aren't as efficient as recip power plants. It stated it in the article you quoted. The cost as well would be enormous.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:28 PM
 
33,242 posts, read 27,970,010 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
That link re-stated what I said - not sure how I was "wrong". In fact I wasn't. Turbines aren't as efficient as recip power plants. It stated it in the article you quoted. The cost as well would be enormous.
ok then, find a reciprocating engine that is 21 inches long and 6.5 inches in diameter, that makes 100hp. i am betting that you cant find one. and yes i know there are small reciprocating engines that are quite small, but they DO NOT make the needed power. it would be great if there was a small piston engine that indeed made that kind of power, and used a multiple number of fuels, but there isnt. micro turbines are in fact quite light, and quite powerful, and quite compact, and are efficient enough to power an electric car and get decent fuel economy, 35mpg is nothing to sneeze at.
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,690 posts, read 91,107,894 times
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When I first heard about the Volt being a series hybrid I wondered myself if a small turbine couldn't be used in a series design. I know the main advantage of a petrol engine in a hybrid application (besides the fact that it has already undergone a century of intense R&D) is that it can be stopped and restarted very quickly as needed. I don't know if that's the case with smaller turbines. Even diesels have a hard enough time starting back up that they have up to now been disfavored for hybrid applications where the engine stops and starts a lot. I also don't know if the Volt's engine starts and stops or if it starts and just keeps running when needed. I know with the series hybrid buses they have here in Chicago the engine never shuts off while the bus is in use.
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:01 PM
 
12,872 posts, read 22,694,137 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
ok then, find a reciprocating engine that is 21 inches long and 6.5 inches in diameter, that makes 100hp. i am betting that you cant find one. and yes i know there are small reciprocating engines that are quite small, but they DO NOT make the needed power. it would be great if there was a small piston engine that indeed made that kind of power, and used a multiple number of fuels, but there isnt. micro turbines are in fact quite light, and quite powerful, and quite compact, and are efficient enough to power an electric car and get decent fuel economy, 35mpg is nothing to sneeze at.
Just because a turbine is the only thing that would fit in the car at this point doesn't mean it is the most practical way to power your battery charger. Jaguar designed this car around the turbines, so swapping them out isn't really an option. Not sure where you are going with that.

35 mpg sucks for a hybrid, my 15 year old station wagon with a 2.4L gas engine in it gets 30-32. The diesel version gets in the 40's. All without the ridiculously complicated ($$$$$$$$) equipment that this Jaguar has on it.

Diesel engines would run on the same fuel as this turbine, they are the same type of fuel. In fact I believe you can run Jet-A in diesel engine cars.
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,690 posts, read 91,107,894 times
Reputation: 29523
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
Just because a turbine is the only thing that would fit in the car at this point doesn't mean it is the most practical way to power your battery charger. Jaguar designed this car around the turbines, so swapping them out isn't really an option. Not sure where you are going with that.

35 mpg sucks for a hybrid, my 15 year old station wagon with a 2.4L gas engine in it gets 30-32. The diesel version gets in the 40's. All without the ridiculously complicated ($$$$$$$$) equipment that this Jaguar has on it.

Diesel engines would run on the same fuel as this turbine, they are the same type of fuel. In fact I believe you can run Jet-A in diesel engine cars.
Does 35mpg suck for a hybrid capable of running 1/4mi in the low 10s? Can your 15-year-old station wagon do that? Let's keep some perspective here.
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Old 10-05-2010, 07:55 AM
 
12,872 posts, read 22,694,137 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
Does 35mpg suck for a hybrid capable of running 1/4mi in the low 10s? Can your 15-year-old station wagon do that? Let's keep some perspective here.
This Jaguar isn't about MPG it's about performance. That is (I suppose) why they went with a higher powered power plant like a turbine engine. For practical purposes most of us don't need that and as such a more efficient, albeit lower powered, power plant would be in order.
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Old 10-05-2010, 08:27 AM
 
33,242 posts, read 27,970,010 times
Reputation: 19736
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
Just because a turbine is the only thing that would fit in the car at this point doesn't mean it is the most practical way to power your battery charger. Jaguar designed this car around the turbines, so swapping them out isn't really an option. Not sure where you are going with that.

35 mpg sucks for a hybrid, my 15 year old station wagon with a 2.4L gas engine in it gets 30-32. The diesel version gets in the 40's. All without the ridiculously complicated ($$$$$$$$) equipment that this Jaguar has on it.

Diesel engines would run on the same fuel as this turbine, they are the same type of fuel. In fact I believe you can run Jet-A in diesel engine cars.
you still dont get it do you? this is a high performance vehicle that gets 35mpg using TWO micro gas turbines to provide electrical power, and has a range of up to 560 miles. top that with your station wagon, even with diesel power. i had an 84 F250 with the 6.9 diesel engine that got 21mpg pretty much all the time, the worst fuel economy i ever got with that truck was 16 while fighting a stiff headwind and running 70mph down the freeway.

as for what fuel it runs, a diesel can used jet a, kerosene, and diesel. the micro turbine can use all those along with ANY OTHER LIQUID THAT BURNS. try THAT with a diesel.

try to imagine using a single micro turbine to power a generator, rather than two. i would bet the fuel economy goes up by at least 50% since only one engine is running rather than two. and again, it isnt just the fuel economy, but the packaging as well. a micro turbine can be put in a number of places in the car, and has a very tiny weight penalty compared to a small generator powered by an internal combustion engine.
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Old 10-05-2010, 10:18 AM
 
12,872 posts, read 22,694,137 times
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Well for one this isn't an original concept, Volvo pioneered it, pairing the turbine with an electric motor/battery pack almost 20 years ago.

Popular Science - Google Books

Chances are, the same problems that made it an issue back then are the same issues that exist today. Volvo recently has decided to go with a Plug-in diesel design capable of 120 MPG averaged.

Volvo Plans Plug-In Diesel Hybrid for 2012 - NYTimes.com
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