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Old 01-03-2011, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Pikesville, MD
5,229 posts, read 12,297,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Continental View Post
I wouldn't mind having an older coupe or roadster as long as it was reliable.

If it's not already a collectiible version, it's easy to make an older Jag reliable these days (you don't want to mess with a collectible one as it'll reduce it's value), but if you have to have a shop do the work, it won't be cheap (but that's the case for ANY car related work, for any marque).
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:04 AM
 
3,743 posts, read 11,590,591 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tropolis View Post
Overall thoughts on the brand
I think this is high tide for Jaguar - the current product is the result of very good groundwork courtesy of Ford and high-end design by Ian Callum from Aston Martin. What you see for sale today are cars that have high quality and reliability, good character and presence, and rarity among peers since they are low volume. Today's cars aren't the cost engineering cars of the early Ford years, don't have the quality issues of the pre-Ford cars, and have not yet been influenced by the new ownership.

The latest cars are gorgeous and stand out much better than the more common BMWs and Audis. Well worth the money, and I would buy one today, but the question is, how will they be maintained now that Jaguar is owned by Tata Motors?

Today you can buy an early 80s V12 Jag for less than $10k or a new XJ and have just as much road presence - depends on what ou want and need, but I'd buy a modern Jag before any BMW these days.

Last edited by Sayantsi; 01-03-2011 at 09:31 AM..
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:17 AM
 
3,129 posts, read 5,431,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoobleKar View Post
My 2004 X-Type has been rock solid since new, now with around 80,000 on the clock.

I've only done the standard lube changes, one set of brake pads, and one set of tyres since new.

My factory battery also went flat this past summer......to be expected for a 2004.

I'd buy another without hesitation.
Must be the only one. The X-type is discontinued and one of the worst cars of the 2000s. It was supposed to revitalize jag but became a laughingstock and one of the most unreliable cars ever. Its a Ford Mondeo in drag.
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:18 AM
 
11,266 posts, read 45,023,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc63 View Post
(snip)

Hmm. My '86s pictured used Bosch injection and ignition. No lucas parts except for the starter, which I replaced with a Bosch gear reduction unit. The Bosch system was completely reliable. I take it you never saw or worked on cars of the '80s.

To the contrary, I worked on a lot of Jags from the late 1940's through the mid 1980's ... courtesy of a few clients who owned extensive collections of Brit upline cars. Typically, they had a warehouse for their collections as well as 10-15 car garages at home, so they had an assortment of "daily drivers" which saw frequent use ... and breakdowns. FWIW, the early "lucas" branded FI systems on the cars were re-labeled Bosch components (as simple as a Lucas brand sticker over the Bosch label!) ... of which I'd had a long experience with from the german and swedish cars I worked on since the Bosch FI systems first went in to those cars.

What was noteworthy with the Brit use of those Bosch components was the English manufactured wiring harness materials simply weren't up to the demands of the cars. I saw a lot of problems with the old style Lucas wiring connectors and the poor quality of the copper wire and insulation used in production. These combined to create high resistant connections and poor grounds in the cars ... giving erratic control signals to the injectors as well as poor sensor readings to the computers, and erratic performance of the computers.

As I was one of the few automotive shops in my market place with an EE background and practical knowledge of how to use diagnostic equipment such as an OScope or a megger, I was the "go to" shop in my area to diagnose the running problems of those later model cars. That was my stock in trade ... the ability to diagnose these intermittent running problems that eluded the dealerships and the "snooty" specialists that catered to this market segment. In fact, mine was the shop that did a lot of re-cons for the franchised dealers on these used cars when they were traded in after the new warranties ran out ... because I fixed them where there in-house diagnostics did not, but simply replaced components on a pass-fail basis and huge expense. If you've ever followed the VinceF training on automotive electrical/electronics diagnostics ... you'll know what I was doing, long before it was recognized as a need in the automotive repair trade.


the 6s are easy to work on, and actually fairly cheap to get replacement parts for these days. But with the internet, that's the case for a lot of cars that "back in the day" were considered hard to get parts for and expensive to keep running. Too bad so many old school mechanics haven't worked on stuff like this for decades so don't realize that things have definitely changed for the better.

"easy to work on" is your perspective of these vehicles, and you're not the average DIY tech ... any more than I am. I've got Whitworth tooling going back to Snap-On 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2" drive sockets, wobblies, and a lot of snap on (and stawhille) box and open end wrenches, along with taps/dies and a long history of the brit use of araldite as a cure-all for their crappy aluminum formulations to repair parts. Of course, all the metric tooling, too. Stripped thread repairs in soft or eroded aluminum a specialty .... as well as reforming surfaces so they could seal properly without using a ton of silicone goos ....

"cheap to get replacement parts" is again a relative judgement. I've been dealing with Moss and Beck and a host of other direct importers for a long time, and parts were never difficult to obtain. The 'net has made the access to parts easier for many people who weren't "in the trade", and has made service information a lot more accessible. But I'll point out that there's not been a "trickle down" of these cost savings benefits to the average Jag owner who doesn't work on their own car .... they still pay top dollar for the parts and labor required to keep their cars on the road.


Ahh, the early V12 cars. One of the best sources of the "Jags are unreliable" stories. In stock form, the V12 E Types and XJS models are complete nightmares. THOSE are the ones that swaps fix everything. And in the automatic equipped ones (most of them) the trans is already a GM TH400, so it's easy to upgrade.

At least we can agree here. Those were a series of cars with all the panache, driving pleasure, style, and other intagibles that were part of the Jag mystique ... to include very poor reliability and durability in so many aspects of their build quality.

Of course, these days, using a custom megasquirt injection/ignition setup, as well as an inexpensive street rod wiring harness solves most of the problems as well, and leaves you with the smooth power of a V12.

Agree, there are ways to overcome the defects in these cars. But you'll not find the average DIY'er pursuing these fixes ... again, you're oversimplifying what is a time and labor consumptive process for the results to be obtained.

All that being said, I want a '75-77 XJ6-C coupe (not XJS) and put a Ford 460 in it, leaving the classic coupe form intact, but with all modern electricals and injection:

Again, not a simple, easy, or inexpensive project for somebody with lesser skills than you've got. If a person had to buy the car and pay to have this level of work done to it, they'd have a bundle of money into the project ... far more than the finished car would be worth. It's like seeing the cars go across the auction block at B-J Collector Auctions and recognizing the time/materials/expertise required to achieve the results and seeing the car bring 1/3-1/2 of the investment back to the seller. The number of people in this country that have the connections you apparently do to find very inexpensive resto projects and access to a motor and all the parts for pennies on the dollar are few and far between.
All in all, your niche perspective on owning/driving/maintaining these cars is quite skewed from what the average owner can and will experience with these machines. I've no doubt that you can put one on the road and get decent service out of it for a nominal cost ... but you're not making a case that others can do so, too. When I look at many of the threads on owner issues with these cars, as well as talk to my friends in the aftermarket shops that keep these cars on the road today ... they're an expensive hobby for the owners.

Last edited by sunsprit; 01-03-2011 at 11:21 AM..
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Pikesville, MD
5,229 posts, read 12,297,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWatson13 View Post
Must be the only one. The X-type is discontinued and one of the worst cars of the 2000s. It was supposed to revitalize jag but became a laughingstock and one of the most unreliable cars ever. Its a Ford Mondeo in drag.
While it's a Mondeo (similar to my SVT Contour) the Ford bits are actually quite good. the earlier cars had some teething pains and weren't as reliable as the later cars, but the '04-up cars have been rather well recieved by owners, with aonly a very small percentage having relaibility issues, making it on par with BMW and Mercedes in the low end luxury market. Considering more people are willing to write if there's a problem than if there isn't, the owner reviews here show that the majority of owners love(d) their X types:

Jaguar X-Type Reviews - Carsurvey.org

The X type ran for 8 years and was only discontinued when Jaguar was sold by Ford. It's being replaced with an all new car as Ford isn't sharing parts with Tata. Kind of like how that Fiat is now owning Chrysler, the highly succesful Fiat 500 won't share it's cahssis with the Ford Ka. It's a purely business decision.

As Clarkson said, "we (humans) share 80% of our DNA with a Halibut" So what if some of the basic architecture is shared with a European Ford?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit View Post
All in all, your niche perspective on owning/driving/maintaining these cars is quite skewed from what the average owner can and will experience with these machines. I've no doubt that you can put one on the road and get decent service out of it for a nominal cost ... but you're not making a case that others can do so, too. When I look at many of the threads on owner issues with these cars, as well as talk to my friends in the aftermarket shops that keep these cars on the road today ... they're an expensive hobby for the owners.

Not working on your own (relatively) classic car is a choice you (the global you, not "you" personally for the purposes of this paragraph) make. If you CHOOSE to pay someone else to work on your car at retail, then it's you're OWN fault for the cost, not the cars, so I have no sympathy for people who don't know anything taking a car to a shop and getting raped, regardless of make.

And sorry, seen away too many indy shops and even dealers that simply charge WAY too much for unnecessary service or simply dont' know what they are doing (and you'd think they'd know what was wrong with cars based on their "training" but it's really really rare). And when they see owners of cars like this come in with no clue, the $$ roll in their eyes. I bet you can tell what I've had the MOST issue with over the last 30 years. Not cars, but the "trained" techs that work on them (like the guys at Land Rover on Long Island that did work for the previous owner of my current Range Rover and stripped spark plugs putting them in...and charged a premium price to do so). Interestingly, you might believe that all these cars are unreliable due to your expereince and discount mine, but woudl you do the same whan I bring up the fact that there's a solid reason that most people are sceptical of there being honest mechanics/techs? Or would that fear be something YOU discount because you know better?

Simply put if *I* can do it with a small set of hand tools in a home garage (no lifts, no expensive diagnostic tools, etc), anyone can if they so choose. You're in essense telling them they can't and the evidence is there that if they make even a half attempt, they they actually CAN.

I also will state this, my examples were picked up randomly without spending a lot of time looking them over beforehand. If I'm simply that lucky, then I ought to have won the lottery by now. I'm NOT that lucky, I simply don't give in to naysaying. And I spend time talking with owners who can relate where the common issues are and how they were repaired or updated (meaning, I tend to go off of hundreds/thousands of owner reports, not just my own).
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Floriduh
164 posts, read 876,386 times
Reputation: 269
Juuuuuuunnnnkkkkkk, Its like a pretty girl. She looks good, but once you get to know her you say what a b$tch.
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Central TX
2,318 posts, read 3,302,726 times
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I'm happy that the reliability has improved and a Jag definitely has a mystique about it but the new ones look like parade floats. JMO. The interiors are surely nice, however.

Having said all that, I still wouldn't kick one out of the driveway.

When I lived in Detroit, one of the guys I worked with spent a lot of time on the road. He would buy a used XJ, drive it a ton of miles and then get another used one. It worked for him.
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Old 01-03-2011, 01:33 PM
 
11,266 posts, read 45,023,691 times
Reputation: 15138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc63 View Post
While it's a Mondeo (similar to my SVT Contour) the Ford bits are actually quite good. the earlier cars had some teething pains and weren't as reliable as the later cars, but the '04-up cars have been rather well recieved by owners, with aonly a very small percentage having relaibility issues, making it on par with BMW and Mercedes in the low end luxury market. Considering more people are willing to write if there's a problem than if there isn't, the owner reviews here show that the majority of owners love(d) their X types:

Jaguar X-Type Reviews - Carsurvey.org

The X type ran for 8 years and was only discontinued when Jaguar was sold by Ford. It's being replaced with an all new car as Ford isn't sharing parts with Tata. Kind of like how that Fiat is now owning Chrysler, the highly succesful Fiat 500 won't share it's cahssis with the Ford Ka. It's a purely business decision.

As Clarkson said, "we (humans) share 80% of our DNA with a Halibut" So what if some of the basic architecture is shared with a European Ford?





Not working on your own (relatively) classic car is a choice you (the global you, not "you" personally for the purposes of this paragraph) make. If you CHOOSE to pay someone else to work on your car at retail, then it's you're OWN fault for the cost, not the cars, so I have no sympathy for people who don't know anything taking a car to a shop and getting raped, regardless of make.

And sorry, seen away too many indy shops and even dealers that simply charge WAY too much for unnecessary service or simply dont' know what they are doing (and you'd think they'd know what was wrong with cars based on their "training" but it's really really rare). And when they see owners of cars like this come in with no clue, the $$ roll in their eyes. I bet you can tell what I've had the MOST issue with over the last 30 years. Not cars, but the "trained" techs that work on them (like the guys at Land Rover on Long Island that did work for the previous owner of my current Range Rover and stripped spark plugs putting them in...and charged a premium price to do so). Interestingly, you might believe that all these cars are unreliable due to your expereince and discount mine, but woudl you do the same whan I bring up the fact that there's a solid reason that most people are sceptical of there being honest mechanics/techs? Or would that fear be something YOU discount because you know better?

Simply put if *I* can do it with a small set of hand tools in a home garage (no lifts, no expensive diagnostic tools, etc), anyone can if they so choose. You're in essense telling them they can't and the evidence is there that if they make even a half attempt, they they actually CAN.

I also will state this, my examples were picked up randomly without spending a lot of time looking them over beforehand. If I'm simply that lucky, then I ought to have won the lottery by now. I'm NOT that lucky, I simply don't give in to naysaying. And I spend time talking with owners who can relate where the common issues are and how they were repaired or updated (meaning, I tend to go off of hundreds/thousands of owner reports, not just my own).
The fallacies of your thinking are enormous:

1) you've repeatedly posted here about your projects that entailed serious body and structural work, mechanical system, and extensive restoration ... representing skill levels and equipment that are far beyond the average (or, for that matter, "above" average) DIY'er. In fact, you've posted work/projects that would have been challenging to many pro shops with in-house talent less than yours. So, it's rather amusing that you'll assert that so many others can/could do what you have accomplished ... because I've been in the position of fixing their mistakes for many many years.

I can't say I've seen it all ... but I've seen way too many times when a DIY'er couldnt' install a set of points, or time a distributor, or replace spark plug wires, or install brake pads with the friction surface against the rotor, or adjust a fuel injection system or synch carbs, or diagnose a faulty fuel pump or switch or electrical supply to that pump, let alone replace a fuel filter without it leaking .... I think you give way too much credit to other DIY'ers. For example, how do they know what's "normal" cycling of the emissions controls on their late model motors? How do they know how to adjust the FI system on the models where it's ajdustable? Do they have exhaust gas testers? I know I could adjust the old carbs by sound and lifting the dashpots and reading the plugs and checking the fuel economy ... but that work was greatly eased by buying an exhaust gas analyzer to KNOW what the mixture was ... and even then, there was lattitude in the preferred adjustment range which I got from years of experience on many cars, not just one or two samples.

The bottom line is that few people not in the trade have your skills, your talents, your confidence to tackle projects. Really ... how many people on this thread would be up to doing a 460 motor swap installation in their garage at home because you've made it sound like it's a trivial thing to do? It'd be a project to do if it was the original engine in a car ... and you're doing a conversion. Let's see ... there's electronics, electrical, cooling, exhaust, motor mounts, and a host of other little details before that 460 is gonna' make smoke in your old Jag. And how are they going to lift one heavy motor out of the chassis? with a few friends and brute strength? I think not, it's time for a cherry picker or a chain fall or a come-along and a handy beam overhead ...



2) You assert that the "techs" working on these cars are a bunch of less than competent high priced folk who live to rip off their clientele. What you seem to miss is that the techs in these shops are no different than the techs in the Ford, GM, Chrysler, Honda, Toyota, Volvo, MB, BMW, or any other mainline dealership. They all go through similar manufacturer training, have similar access to factory tooling and information and protocols to do their work ... and the dollar results and car durability/reliability are markedly different for the car owners. Hence, we need to look at what is the real difference between the owner's results with these cars ... and it's the cars, not the inept and incompetent techs who choose to work on them. Jags don't attract incompetent techs any more than any other brand ....

3) I've watched many people who are confident in their professions and trades try to work on their own cars and make a complete hash out of it. I, for one ... don't write computer software, I pay others for that product because they're good at it. I'm not guessing here ... I've spent way too many years of my life fixing the automotive repair errors of talented people from other fields not doing work properly on their cars, no matter how motivated they were to do so and having bought a few tools that seemed appropriate for the job at hand. When you start looking at the incidental costs of doing the work properly and safely, a lot of folks simply aren't prepared to do it right. Everything from personal safety/protection gear, to proper disposal of the wastes (oh, you do have a good safe legal method for disposal of your used solvents/anti-freeze/waste oils, don't you?) doesn't everybody? well maybe they don't. Does everybody have a welding torch/arc or sophisticated welder at hand for those times when they're needed in auto repair? Does everybody have a safe place to use those items? The list goes on and on of legitimate concerns about doing the work properly, safely, and legally ... and they are all within the responsibility of the DIY'er, just as they are for us in the profession. Dumping anti-freeze down the storm drain doesn't cut it anymore .... nor does spraying the automotive paints to do a whole car respray in somebody's home garage ... when it comes to pollutants.

Come to think of it ... how many folk in cities today have an appropriate place to work on their car themselves? Do all those folk being taken advantage of by the rip off Jag techs have suitable garages where they have room for the car, their tools, workspace, a workbench? as well as another car to drive while the Jag is down for the repairs?

4) What's really outrageously misleading in your posts here is your assertion that somebody without appropriate tooling can work on these cars with good results. A few bucks worth of Home Depot or Checker Auto parts tools isn't going to get the job done ... especially on the older models where Whitworth Standard fasteners were used. Absent using the correct tools of good quality (The "King Dick" cheapies don't cut it), the first bunged up fastener from American or Metric or multi-millimeter speedwrenches (Crescent wrenches) tools used instead will have the project in a world of hurt very quickly. A lot of the materials and fasteners used in these cars weren't of a quality consistent with the high price of acquisition, and I've seen way too many turned into mush ... including phillips and slotted screws around the cars. Again, I've spent way too many years of my life (and billable hours) extracting fasteners that were broken, stripped, seized, and damaged by poor ability techs/DIY'ers on these cars .... and repairing the damage so that the car could be returned to service.

5) Just to illustrate another facet of these cars from years past ... these were the only cars I've ever worked on that would have disc brake caliper failures. No, I'm not talking about needing to replace the square cut seal for the piston, I'm talking about seeing the caliper halves leak ... requiring replacement of the caliper at some very low mileage in service times. Girling and similar manufacturers simply didn't use the materials and design quality that others used in the industry at the same time. I never had a caliper failure like this on anything but the Brit cars I saw in the shop.

Last edited by sunsprit; 01-03-2011 at 01:59 PM..
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:50 PM
 
10,139 posts, read 23,974,596 times
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What a coincidence. I had a guy offer to swap me a XJ-R 1998 150k BL/BL for one of my rigs. He says he has put $6000 in repairs into and it is running great.

What's it really worth?
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:59 PM
 
2 posts, read 4,904 times
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The new models are BEAUTIFULL! I have an XF and I'm so glad I traded my CLS55. Much better car.

My wife wants to trade her A8 now.
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