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Someone who is not performing well but giving their efforts is not always worthy of a negative reference.
Exactly maybe the supervisor's expectations are unrealistic, or the environment was not good, or there was just a skills mismatch between the employee and the job. That doens't mean one should bash them to other potential employers and wreck their chances of supporting themselves or others.
I'm of the general opinion you don't do nasty things to someone unless they have really done something willfully to warrant it.
And that only applies if the statements are false. As long as the person/company is telling the truth it does not equate to libel or slander.
What are the elements of a cause of action for libel or slander?
The elements of a defamation suit; whether slander or libel, are:
1. A defamatory statement;
2. Published to a third party;
3. Which the speaker knew or should have known was false;
4. That causes injury to the subject of the communication
Thanks, I understand the differences.
Throwing out comments, not known to be either true or false, do not fall under a protected area ("slander per se"). Or I would guess there would be no reason for a liability waiver to be presented in the first place. Apparently someone (HR, corporate lawyers, or some other dirt-digging gossipmonger) thought a legalese-heavy waiver was necessary to prevent the tests of the limits of libel and slander.
To attempt to avoid any further hashing out of the finer details of what's permissible under slander or libel, to that I say as I was told by many lawyers and laymen, you can be sued any time, by anyone, for any reason. Whether valid or not, that is for the court to decide; but you may or may not find yourself on the wrong side of the aisle in a lawsuit.
With that said, I attempt to live by the following personal rules:
1. Try not to say anything about someone I wouldn't say to someone's face. [This rule becomes null and void within my own home, under my own roof. HA.]
2. For thinner-skinned people: be kind or be quiet.
3. For my thicker-skinned friends: practice the fine (and mostly lost) art of ess-tee-eff-U.
Someone who is not performing well but giving their efforts is not always worthy of a negative reference. An example. I once had a sales associate who was a terrible sales associate. He and I talked about it, and he admitted that he was uncomfortable talking to the customers, etc. And selling terrified him. He started looking for another job, found someone who was looking for a research assistant (he was in college) who would be able to assist on a small project. he gave me as a reference. I gave him a good one regarding his ability to communicate one on one, his work ethic (he really did try to be good at his job but he was not).
If he had applied for a sales job, well, no it would not be a good reference. But for the job he was applying for? Absolutely.
Well, this is different. In good conscience, both you and he knew that asking you to say he was great at sales would be lying and easily provable in his next job.
I can't give anybody a bad reference, unless they truly, truly deserve it like that woman who put feces in her former employers oven and fridge. I'm just happy her picture is all over the internet to warn others of her sickness. You have to be on the verge of mental illness to even THINK to do some nastiness like that.
The OP purposely gave a messed up reference and they know it. They're coming on here trying to give "excuses" of why, but he knows he might have messed up this man's chances of getting a position. No way, would he have used the OP as a "reference" if he knew he was going to give him a bad reference. Who does that??
I believe everyone should have their so-called "references" tested by friends looking for feedback.
I hope the OP's "thug" co-worker utilizes this "thug" abilities when he hears what he said.
In the bolded case give no reference or just confirm dates of employment. Messing with someone's ability to support themselves or their family isn't something to mess arround with. Don't do it unless someone did something to deserve it. If they acted like a tool as the person the OP gave a reference did then yea he had it coming and shouldn't expect a good reference. If you just didn't like the guy or his work and he was making a good effort either give a positive reference or a general/neutral one.
But the ex-coworker didn't act like a "tool". From what the OP said his problem was getting to work on time and also added extra stuff the employer didn't need to know such as:
Quote:
I told the caller that he hadn't checked with me, which I considered a breach of manners, and that I hadn't seen him in over a year and didn't feel I could give a reference- that I had given him a reference for a specific job over two years ago, and that I couldn't refer him for her job. The jobs involve taking care of people and I don't feel there is much ethical leeway with that. I told her that he was a nice guy who did a good job with people when he came to work, but that I hadn't seen him be reliable with showing up regularly, and that I was also concerned that he hadn't contacted me before giving my name out.
Seriously, did the caller really need to know all this??
The OP was being passive/aggressive. Only weak, two-faced grimey people do this.
It's unfortunate that there are so many people like this in the world. No one uses someone as a reference if they're not going to say good things about them. The OP clearly did not like this person which is why they said what they said. You haven't spoken to them in about a year, so now you have no clue of what they're like today??? It's not three, five or even ten years, but ONE!!!
It was a slimey thing to do. The OP was better off not saying anything at all. As a matter of fact, many of the responses I'm reading here are kinda slimey as well. If you don't like the person, then why tell them you can use them as a reference if it's going to be subpar?
This is f___ked up and you all know it which is why you keep trying to make excuses for being slimey.
But that's okay. The tables WILL turn one day.
Last edited by marilyn220; 03-09-2013 at 09:09 AM..
And, again, we have someone with a little bit of knowledge who thinks that their experiences are the same as legal truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DogNight
(((SIGH)))
Here we go! Google the words "libel" and "slander."
Fully aware of both of those terms. Truth is an absolute defense to both, you may want to spend some time on Google yourself. What OP said was the truth, therefore no libel or slander.
Try giving a reference like that in NY.
Ok...truth is still an absolute defense.
Then try giving a reference like that in NC.
You can now sign away your rights (in NC) to slander and libel situations - brought on by ignorant, off-handed remarks made by someone - by signing a waiver I was just handed for the umpteenth time yesterday at an interview. The waiver states that you will not sue the former employer, the potential employer, the person who made the comments (IF they are relayed to you in writing, verbally, or otherwise) if they are discovered in reference checks. That means someone's moronic, thoughtless remarks cannot be held against them in any way, particularly if it costs you a job.
No wonder you think libel and slander apply here...you don't understand that the waiver you signed holds no legal weight.
In NY there have not been such waivers handed to me at any interview, but I haven't had an interview there in 10 years, so things may have changed.
If there is a waiver to sign away rights, there was a law that has the potential to have been violated by the original question. Obviously lawsuits have been filed for just this reason. I'm thinking this form did not drop out of the ether.
Now that I think of it, my cousin was recently hired somewhere (teaching, school related) in NY and I asked her if she had seen this form, and she had no clue what I was referring to.
So yeah, there's no laws against libel or slander.
I know it's tough for some HR reps to concede to, but guess what? The rules aren't all the same in your little individual kingdoms.
Yes, they are. You just don't understand the form you are signing and its effect. SOme companies and HR reps will take advantage of the ignorant who do not know the law. You are one of them.
You would also hope that if you asked someone to be a reference they would be honest with you and let you know if that wasn't a good idea.
I've had people ask me to be a reference before and I warn them that I was not really close enough to their work or do not remember enough details to be helpful (I hired over 200 freelancers for about 12 months - I get requests occasionally from this group). If they use me as a reference anyway, I tell the person who calls exactly what I told the person who asked me to be a reference.
Yes, they are. You just don't understand the form you are signing and its effect. SOme companies and HR reps will take advantage of the ignorant who do not know the law. You are one of them.
Even if it is illegal (and I don't personally know that it is, I'll just take your word for it), I still would NOT sign something like that. No way.
As we can tell from reading the pitiful responses in this thread, you really do NOT know the people you think you call "friend" or who they truly are on the "inside".
Never, ever would I sign something like this. Never.
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