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Old 08-17-2016, 08:30 PM
 
7,667 posts, read 3,523,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treemoni View Post
I don't think they're recorded, but they give you a copy of the presentation afterward.
One more concern, if I doctor up my resume and get my application accepted and actually get the job but I really had to doctor up my resume to do it. Like if I have to insert some task I did into the body of my resume but in reality I only did it a little (like maybe one aspect of a project) and then I get into the job and there is no training and no nothing and I had put "I am expert" they have a full year to can you before you gain your coveted fed job tenure.


A for instance would be writing scopes of work and doing estimates. I have to get vendor quotes for equipment and shipping and will write up a scope for my part in a larger project but I never was a lead project manager or estimator who did complex spread sheets and tryed to speculate on the cost of labor based on complexity of installation etc.


Because I have gotten vendor quotes and writen limited scopes of work do I put expert?
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Old 08-17-2016, 09:39 PM
 
4,152 posts, read 2,300,782 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
Because I have gotten vendor quotes and writen limited scopes of work do I put expert?
My line of thinking is this: if I feel my prior experience qualifies me AND I feel I can perform the function on the job if asked, I will say I'm an expert. You don't want to end up in a situation where they can remove you for lying on your application. I know someone who lied for a promotion and a high level manager wanted to fire him. He was saved by our boss. You don't want to take that chance.

Like the poster above said, it's best to apply to jobs you qualify for. It can be frustrating if you know you can do the job, but the announcement is written in a way that makes it difficult for you to move forward. That's happened to me many times. I just apply to those positions I know I surely qualify for. If you don't have the specific experience, try to get it in your current position or take some training.
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Old 08-17-2016, 10:28 PM
 
7,603 posts, read 4,250,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
I am attempting to stay within a certain area because my soon to be wifes pay combined with a fed job wage and the job security that goes along with it would be solid gold, but to move thousands of miles away for a fed job that maybe breaks 100k if you are lucky while my wife will have to start over is not really a tenable situation. That being said I am trying to cross over my skills into what is available in my area which is maybe a loosing situation?
This can be a limiting factor. Being willing to move is often important because there is so much competition.

So how do I take the KPA's and perhaps build those experiences and how far do I have to take it?


Typically there are like 5 radial buttons ranging from I know nothing to im an expert, is it true that if you are not an expert all the way down the line then don't bother? how much exaggeration can you put before you run afoul of the disclaimer you have to click on?
Yep, this is one of the problems with the current application system. Everyone clicks "expert" and so those who don't feel compelled to exaggerate and click it as well. Those who don't won't get passed on. Here's a kicker. Many technical jobs in civil service will be classified as X type engineer, when in reality they can be X or Y or K for that matter. Many are/should be classified interdisciplinary because the key skill is a technical thought process, with the right skill set. For lower GS grades the supervisor will often cast a wider net because they are looking for someone they can grow into the job with the expectation that person will stay around for promotion. For higher grade jobs, they supervisor wants more job specific knowledge right off the bat.



I still have a good job and I have the money to build experiences on the side if that's what needs to happen, however, I will add another spin to that. I do have an acquaintance at on of the organizations and I was asking if an A&P would help, an extra PE etc etc and they said no and that was with the FAA, so now I am at a loss as to how to make up those deficient KPA's.
For most jobs, that's right, PE doesn't add a great deal. It might be a tie breaker but not a primary consideration. Most likely you aren't as deficient as you think you are. It's a matter of perspective. What it may take is applying to a lower grade job.

Are most people single and willing to move ANYWHERE when their first get into the fed system? That would actually explain a lot. Once you have fed time in you can transfer and keep tenure and I am guessing at that point you can afford to not meet all the KPA's?
Once you are in, you can apply elsewhere and keep tenure. You still have to compete however for the same skillsets. But by that time you can most likely answer yes to all of them anyway. The problem, at least in the technical jobs that makes it difficult to meet them is many people are applying for what is actually a significant promotion from their current job level. Much of the difference in technical government jobs is the need for systems thinking rather than bench level thinking, which is typically at higher levels of management than most applicants. Example. Many want to come in at GS13 thinking it's starting level when it's actually about the pinnacle of a career for 90% of engineers.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
Also I think you were the one saying that fed jobs are not actually very stable but that is contrary to what everyone has told me, people working in the FAA right now as well as OSHA.
That is probably a misinterpretation of what I've tried to pass along. Everyone likes to look at the civil service as very firm, fixed, everything is hunky-dorey job. While it is more stable than may other jobs, I think people need to consider it with eyes wide open rather than eyes full of stars mislead by too many stories of high pay, perfect pensions, and perfect working conditions. The reality is that pay is good, but not outstanding. Pension is good, but comes at a price in terms of tradeoffs vs other benefits.
What agency did you work for? I know that there can be base closures and other major events that can trigger furloughs and in rare? instances an actual lay off.
While major events are public, there can be other localized events just like anywhere else. They do go to a lot of effort to avoid/minimize them but they happen. As much as possible when management knows one is coming they start stockpiling vacancies as people leave. Which means everyone starts working with less staff, so you put in more and more OT, both compensated and uncompensated (anyone who says you don't work uncompensated OT is, uh, misinformed.) Then the RIF happens and they start shuffling people around as jobs are eliminated. Those at the bottom of the shuffle are out if there are not enough stockpiled positions. During this process, people get demoted to lower grade jobs, moved into other jobs and in general a lot of disruption. And everyone end up in a "do more with less" operation.

These may not happen as suddenly as in the private sector, but I've seen probably 4-5 since the end of the cold war, not counting the big one. And the most stressful part is they don't happen quickly. Can take a couple of years with everyone stressed. In fact they seem to increase the stress level to "encourage" people to go ahead and leave so they free up a position.
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Bottom line is I'm not trying to say the sky is falling. I am trying to open the eyes of those in the private sector who have an unrealistic fantasy of civil service.
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Old 08-18-2016, 02:09 AM
 
7,667 posts, read 3,523,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Bottom line is I'm not trying to say the sky is falling. I am trying to open the eyes of those in the private sector who have an unrealistic fantasy of civil service.
4-5 since the end of the cold war which was what the 80's when I was born vs every couple of years in oil and gas would be a dream. We had mass lay offs in 08 that drug on for 6 months (so not the 2 years that the feds did) but then we just did one last year and now there is another reorganization and no one knows what is going on. There is work to do but the actual work load being released is drying up which is worse than working a little OT. I guess if the OT started getting really over the top that would suck but then people would just go home for the day with things unfinished if it got that bad.


I think you are right about applying for a lower GS level so long as it has promotion potential and I dont have to get back on USAjobs in order to move beyond. Such as GS-9 with promotion to 12 type of thing and not GS-5 with promotion to 9. The crux of the issue is for me to take GS-7/9 I would have to have already been laid off because the pay differential is just too significant.


However I want to know if I have gotten the process down of applying for fed jobs so that if the situation were to arise I would know how to do it. My fiance brought up a point of burning bridges by applying to jobs that I have no intention of taking, is that true?


I suppose for a position where it is GS7/9 to GS12 and they want to hire me for the 7 or 9 position I could say I am excited they considered me but I cant take that low of a grade and that I was hoping for the 12? Hopefully people are understanding that I am not going to want to take a 50k pay cut if I still have a job? But what if the position is a straight up GS-9 and I am qualified ... Do I burn a bridge by not taking it if it is offered?


Another one of my biggest worries are fed jobs flexable with start times, I am not an early riser and typically I work a little later to compensate. I know millenials are starting to question why am I getting up at the A$$ crack of dawn when I can barely think just because when I could sleep a little longer and actually function but I am really worried the fed govt is still in the, if you are 20 min "late" on a regular basis because someone else set your schedule then crap is going to hit the fan mentality.


Man I cant wait until I can collect SS .... or just die lol.
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Old 08-18-2016, 03:10 AM
 
4,011 posts, read 2,377,839 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by froglipz View Post
Know someone who works where you want to get in!
True today. But it's pathetic. Whatever happened to having qualification and hiring based on merit? Why does everything have to based om some stupid personal connection in what's supposed to be a PROFESIONAL ENVIORNMENT? Then people wonder why America is in the toilet
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Old 08-18-2016, 05:26 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
3,999 posts, read 2,028,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
One more concern, if I doctor up my resume and get my application accepted and actually get the job but I really had to doctor up my resume to do it. Like if I have to insert some task I did into the body of my resume but in reality I only did it a little (like maybe one aspect of a project) and then I get into the job and there is no training and no nothing and I had put "I am expert" they have a full year to can you before you gain your coveted fed job tenure.


A for instance would be writing scopes of work and doing estimates. I have to get vendor quotes for equipment and shipping and will write up a scope for my part in a larger project but I never was a lead project manager or estimator who did complex spread sheets and tryed to speculate on the cost of labor based on complexity of installation etc.


Because I have gotten vendor quotes and writen limited scopes of work do I put expert?
That absolutely has to be taken into consideration. For the most part, if you are applying to federal jobs from the outside (ie you're not a federal employee), just to get through the system to even be considered you will need to stretch your resume/experience at least somewhat (unless you have a very similar job).

You should know what your work will entail and whether you would be able to perform it with some training and experience. I think most federal jobs know that people stretch when they say they are a "expert" but they expect you to at least have some related experience (while maybe not identical) to what you claim to bean expert in.
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Old 08-18-2016, 01:38 PM
 
7,667 posts, read 3,523,841 times
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Thank you everyone for your great responses, I am going to start creating custom resumes for the now three positions in my saved jobs files this Friday and through the weekend.
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:44 PM
 
7,603 posts, read 4,250,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
I think you are right about applying for a lower GS level so long as it has promotion potential and I dont have to get back on USAjobs in order to move beyond. Such as GS-9 with promotion to 12 type of thing and not GS-5 with promotion to 9. The crux of the issue is for me to take GS-7/9 I would have to have already been laid off because the pay differential is just too significant.
This is where a lot of folks get hung up switching to the Feds. OK, I know you've heard all sorts of stories about Fed pay being higher, too high, overpaid, etc. Reality is, in general, the lower skill jobs are overpaid compared to market. But many professional jobs, of which engineers are one, are somewhat to severely underpaid compared to market.

However I want to know if I have gotten the process down of applying for fed jobs so that if the situation were to arise I would know how to do it. My fiance brought up a point of burning bridges by applying to jobs that I have no intention of taking, is that true?
Not in general unless you keep applying to the same office with the same selecting official. Fed is too big so one agency won't know if you turned down another.

I suppose for a position where it is GS7/9 to GS12 and they want to hire me for the 7 or 9 position I could say I am excited they considered me but I cant take that low of a grade and that I was hoping for the 12? Hopefully people are understanding that I am not going to want to take a 50k pay cut if I still have a job? But what if the position is a straight up GS-9 and I am qualified ... Do I burn a bridge by not taking it if it is offered?
In general, if you see a position advertised like that, it is usually a "ladder" position. The intent is to bring in a new hire at the entry GS7 level and grow that person into the final target grade (GS12). Meant as a training and growth opportunity. There is some room to negotiate between 7 and 9. Can't say about other places, but if we had such a position, we intend it as a growth position and wouldn't be looking to hire directly in to the top level. If you don't want to take a $50K pay cut, don't apply to the Fed. You may luck out and get a high grade position and only take a $20K cut, but those high grade positions don't come open very often percentage wise. Some may negotiate, but most others will just go to the next person in line.

Another one of my biggest worries are fed jobs flexable with start times, I am not an early riser and typically I work a little later to compensate. I know millenials are starting to question why am I getting up at the A$$ crack of dawn when I can barely think just because when I could sleep a little longer and actually function but I am really worried the fed govt is still in the, if you are 20 min "late" on a regular basis because someone else set your schedule then crap is going to hit the fan mentality.
It depends. Many locations have core hours that you have to be there, but start and stop times are flexible so long as you put in your 40 hours. Some locations also allow telework options. That said, however there are still some managers that are stuck in the punch a clock mentality.

Man I cant wait until I can collect SS .... or just die lol.
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Old 08-19-2016, 07:49 AM
 
5,344 posts, read 2,320,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by personone View Post
That absolutely has to be taken into consideration. For the most part, if you are applying to federal jobs from the outside (ie you're not a federal employee), just to get through the system to even be considered you will need to stretch your resume/experience at least somewhat (unless you have a very similar job).

You should know what your work will entail and whether you would be able to perform it with some training and experience. I think most federal jobs know that people stretch when they say they are a "expert" but they expect you to at least have some related experience (while maybe not identical) to what you claim to bean expert in.
I have done a couple of federal interviews. They are well aware that people stretch their experience and seem to go out of their way to figure out whether you are engaging in this sort of tactic. In both cases where I was interviewed, I did not stretch my experience and was able to get interviewed based on my actual experience. They were just single vacancies and I think the probably had candidates in mind for both, but sometimes those do fall through.

In one case, they did a reference check that was longer than they spent on my interview. They asked my references very specific questions about my ability to do the job and my skills. This was a somewhat unusual skill set since it had a training/educational component as well as the actual job, so they wanted to make sure the person selected could do both parts. In the end I think an internal candidate just moved to that office (I got the "candidate selected from another hiring source" rejection, but it goes to show that the people who lie on the resume or stretch too much still aren't going to be able to get the job.

For more entry level positions that don't use veterans preference, I have known people who have gotten the positions without claiming to be expert on everything. In fact, I think people tend to be discarded generally if they claim to be an expert on EVERYTHING unless they are doing a very similar job. Even if I do something similar, there are usually a couple of questions that are so subject specific that I haven't done that element.

One of my interviews was because I applied well below my grade. I was having no luck and just wanted to see if there was something wrong with my resume. Apparently there wasn't, but I didn't get the job probably because I was a bit overqualified.
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Old 08-19-2016, 08:20 AM
 
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No matter what they are looking for you need to have experience in it. It doesn't matter how little just put down something. Take anything you have ever done and bend it to work.

If you don't meet the experience requirements 100% you won't BQ most of the time.
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