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You might want to add to this list that a Jew cannot convert to another religion. A Jew that converts to another religion, his family must say Kaddish/the prayer for the dead and cease contact with him/her as s/he is no longer considered part of the Jewish community.
I think you would find this more within ultra-orthodox and orthodox. It is apostasy to convert to another religion from Judaism. Because of the history of forced conversions to Christianity and Islam it is serious.
But you can't convert like ruth anymore. More formal conversion procedures were established. While IIUC there is no documentation of them earlier than the Mishnah, they have to have been in effect much earlier, or various things in the book of Ezra would not make sense.
2. Christian claims Jesus was the Jewish messiah based on Christian readings of certain prooftexts. Thats been the christian assertion for 2000 years. Which Jews have been counter arguing for 2000 years. To introduce them here is disruptive, and not informative.
3. Being cut off from Israel - AFAIK those have never been interpreted to mean a Jew loses his Jewishness - IE that he ceases to be bound by the law. Rather they are so severe that they mean he is cut off from living with the community, but is still a sinner for breaking a law he is bound by. I also think in most or all cases Judaism has established a form of penance to reenter the community, without a new conversion
But you can't convert like ruth anymore. More formal conversion procedures were established. While IIUC there is no documentation of them earlier than the Mishnah, they have to have been in effect much earlier, or various things in the book of Ezra would not make sense.
2. Christian claims Jesus was the Jewish messiah based on Christian readings of certain prooftexts. Thats been the christian assertion for 2000 years. Which Jews have been counter arguing for 2000 years. To introduce them here is disruptive, and not informative.
3. Being cut off from Israel - AFAIK those have never been interpreted to mean a Jew loses his Jewishness - IE that he ceases to be bound by the law. Rather they are so severe that they mean he is cut off from living with the community, but is still a sinner for breaking a law he is bound by. I also think in most or all cases Judaism has established a form of penance to reenter the community, without a new conversion
I believe you don't have to go through the conversion process because you can't loose your Jewishness but I suspect their is a mikvah visit, then a ceremony in the presence of a rabbi.
Yes and the Christian is just a converted Jew, or if already a Jew by mother.
Christianities theology is compatable with Judaism. It is just that it teaches Jesus Christ was the Messiah. The conversion to Judaism is the same as Ruths conversion, "May your God be my God and your people my people".
Since Christianity teaches that Jesus is the Messiah, then his words are scripture. Will you believe the words of the man you think is the Messiah? Will you write them down and follow them? That is what us Christians do, we follow the Messiah (Moshiach).
Excellent post. Christianity is very compatible with Judaism and certainly did branch off of Judaism. However they are completely different at this point despite having similar roots. And the fact is Christians and Jews do share the Old Testament (and for those who need it, "Old Testament" does not mean something that is outdated, it means first so it's not an attack on Judaism).
Originally Posted by Nikk
Yes and the Christian is just a converted Jew, or if already a Jew by mother.
Christianities theology is compatable with Judaism. It is just that it teaches Jesus Christ was the Messiah. The conversion to Judaism is the same as Ruths conversion, "May your God be my God and your people my people".
Since Christianity teaches that Jesus is the Messiah, then his words are scripture. Will you believe the words of the man you think is the Messiah? Will you write them down and follow them? That is what us Christians do, we follow the Messiah (Moshiach).
posted by Bigblue2007:
Excellent post. Christianity is very compatible with Judaism and certainly did branch off of Judaism. However they are completely different at this point despite having similar roots. And the fact is Christians and Jews do share the Old Testament (and for those who need it, "Old Testament" does not mean something that is outdated, it means first so it's not an attack on Judaism).
Christians are not converted Jews. Christians ceased being Jews when there were enough gentiles and the inherited connection was no longer there. You are only Jewish if born to a Jewish mother or born to a Jew by conversion. If you are born to a gentile you are a gentile and if you are raised a Christian and choose to be a Christian you are a member of that religion.
Christianity is not compatible with Judaism. To be a Christian is to believe you are the only ones saved and everyone else is headed to hell. To be a Christian is to worship a man named Jesus.
We share the same family tree but it ends there.
Judaism and Christianity are separate religions.
If we had been the same Christianity would not have spent the better part of the last 2000 years trying to turn us into Christians and kill us when they couldn't.
Judaism has a Tanakh, we do not have an Old Testament.
Yes it is, and to say otherwise is simply ethnocentric.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom
To be a Christian is to believe you are the only ones saved and everyone else is headed to hell.
Huh? I'm a Christian and nobody told me that. I believe (as do all of the other Christians that I know) that any good person is going to heaven. Thank you for telling me what I believe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom
We share the same family tree but it ends there.
Agreed, and those roots go deep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom
Judaism and Christianity are separate religions.
Of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom
If we had been the same Christianity would not have spent the better part of the last 2000 years trying to turn us into Christians and kill us when they couldn't.
I never said it was the same. And Christianity didn't do anything to the Jews, some misguided Christians did. Just as there are many terrible deeds performed by the Jews on the Christians and other people. People do bad things in the name of religion. You shouldn't stereotype all who follow a particular religion, it's disgusting and not religious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom
Judaism has a Tanakh, we do not have an Old Testament.
Enjoy reading the Old Testament. It's a common bond between Christians and Jews.
Enjoy reading the Old Testament. It's a common bond between Christians and Jews. :ok:
Two points:
First, it is offensive to traditional Jews to use the term "Old Testament" as this indicates that the Bible has been replaced or superseded (supersessionism) by a "New Testament", the Christian Bible.
Traditional Judaism does not accept that the Bible, or if you prefer, the Jewish Bible, has been replaced or superseded by the Christian Bible.
According to Maimonides (Rabbi Moses ben Maimon, otherwise known by the acronym Rambam, 1135-1204 C.E.), "The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses and there will be no other Torah (Source: Rambam's thirteen principles of faith).
Second, there are the many differences between the Christian version of the Jewish Bible and the Jewish version of the Jewish Bible:
According to Rabbi Marc Gellman of G-d Squad fame, "One of the most important things to understand when quoting the Bible (the Hebrew Bible or the Christian Testament) is that it was not written in English. This means you're not only reading a translation from Hebrew or Greek, but you're also often reading an interpretation masquerading as a translation."
As an example of this "interpretation masquerading as a translation", further quoting Rabbi Gellman, "The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible (and the text used by Jerome to translate the Bible into Latin in the 4th century), famously translates the Hebrew verse 'and behold a young woman shall give birth' as, 'and behold a virgin shall give birth.' The Hebrew word for virgin is betula, but the word used in Isaiah 7 is alma, which just means a young woman. Obviously, if there was a verse in the Hebrew Bible predicting that a virgin would give birth, this would indeed be a stunning prediction and proof text of Jesus' virgin birth. Unfortunately, for Christians who want this to be the verse, it is not the verse."
First, it is offensive to traditional Jews to use the term "Old Testament" as this indicates that the Bible has been replaced or superseded (supersessionism) by a "New Testament", the Christian Bible.
Traditional Judaism does not accept that the Bible, or if you prefer, the Jewish Bible, has been replaced or superseded by the Christian Bible.
According to Maimonides (Rabbi Moses ben Maimon, otherwise known by the acronym Rambam, 1135-1204 C.E.), "The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses and there will be no other Torah (Source: Rambam's thirteen principles of faith).
Second, there are the many differences between the Christian version of the Jewish Bible and the Jewish version of the Jewish Bible:
According to Rabbi Marc Gellman of G-d Squad fame, "One of the most important things to understand when quoting the Bible (the Hebrew Bible or the Christian Testament) is that it was not written in English. This means you're not only reading a translation from Hebrew or Greek, but you're also often reading an interpretation masquerading as a translation."
As an example of this "interpretation masquerading as a translation", further quoting Rabbi Gellman, "The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible (and the text used by Jerome to translate the Bible into Latin in the 4th century), famously translates the Hebrew verse 'and behold a young woman shall give birth' as, 'and behold a virgin shall give birth.' The Hebrew word for virgin is betula, but the word used in Isaiah 7 is alma, which just means a young woman. Obviously, if there was a verse in the Hebrew Bible predicting that a virgin would give birth, this would indeed be a stunning prediction and proof text of Jesus' virgin birth. Unfortunately, for Christians who want this to be the verse, it is not the verse."
Point #1 is inferiority complex nonsense. This message board is the first and only time I heard someone whine that the Old Testament is implied to be overwritten/superceded by the New Testament. The New Testament doesn't override anything. Again - inferiority complex.
Point #2 is something I've heard before and while not as frivolous as point #1, there are many points that are still debateable (such as your weak example).
Yes it is, and to say otherwise is simply ethnocentric.
Huh? I'm a Christian and nobody told me that. I believe (as do all of the other Christians that I know) that any good person is going to heaven. Thank you for telling me what I believe
The statement originally made stems from what some Christians, particularly those who are Fundamentalist/Evangelicals, say. They have made it clear that in their belief, that just being a good person doesn't cut it. They will say the it doesn't matter how good a person you are. If you don't believe as they do, you are hell bound...period.
They are the ones, who unfortunately for Christianity, have come to represent the Christian faith in many non-Christians' eyes.
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