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No, no, Christians for Satan makes just as much sense as what you're proposing.
Christians, for centuries, have been bullying, torturing, and killing Jews to force their conversions. The messies is simply another tactic. The group was set-up to deliberately deceive people into converting into Christianity, and you are completely ignorant if you don't see that. The messy group is a grave insult to all Jews, especially those who were killed in the Holocaust.
I think what Jeff is trying to say is that there is no such Christian nationality as there is with the Jewish people. So a Christian could be any nationality but as far as religion goes they must believe Jesus to be Messiah. While Jews (full blooded) cannot be any nationality. They are Jewish in nationality. As far as religion goes if they believe Jesus to be Messiah they are Christian, but they are still a full blooded Jew regarding their nationality and genology.
p.s. I understand while it's offensive religiously...but do you see this logic?
Last edited by Jazzedforhim; 08-17-2007 at 12:24 PM..
Reason: typo & add P.S.
No, no, Christians for Satan makes just as much sense as what you're proposing.
Please give a logical explanation as to why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilovejazz
Christians, for centuries, have been bullying, torturing, and killing Jews to force their conversions. The messies is simply another tactic. The group was set-up to deliberately deceive people into converting into Christianity, and you are completely ignorant if you don't see that. The messy group is a grave insult to all Jews, especially those who were killed in the Holocaust.
You are painting the messies with a broad brush that you are dipping into the atrocities of the past.
Ilovejazz, I am sorry we can't see eye to eye on this. It will anger you for me to say this, and you will hold me in scorn and disdain for doing so--but Jesus died to save the world, which includes any Jew or Gentile who does not believe or appreciate the reconciliation to God that His atonement provided. The Bible speaks repeatedly, both in the OT and NT, of all of Israel being reunited to God...so this will happen!
There are some Jews who have converted to true Christianity not for any political reason but simply because they humbled themselves before God and asked for forgiveness of sins, and confessed Jesus as Lord. Something happens when one does this, Ilovejazz, when it is done from a place of true belief and repentance. The power of God becomes palpable, real, you feel truly alive for the 1st time--the ultimate transcendent personal experience. It is not emotional or cerebral or POLITICAL tomfoolery.
Be careful your head doesn’t grow faster than your heart. --Anonymous
p.s. I understand while it's offensive religiously...but do you see this logic?
No logic whatsoever. If Judaism is so important to a person, he won't abandon it and submit to worshipping someone other than G-d directly. There are sincere converts to Christianity, but they aren't ashamed of what they've done and don't try to legitimize their conversion by calling it anything other than what it is.
For the record, most mainstream Christian religions find the messies just as offensive as Jews do.
Here's a rare glimpse behind the messy faces: Ex-Jews for Jesus (broken link)
I've tried to patiently explain my views, and it appears that, at this point, the discussion is more arguing about nothing than it is asking sincere questions, especially when I've explained my position several times.
Bottom line: Believe whatever you want. But at least have the balls to admit whatever you're doing and not try to cover it up by trying to deceive Jews.
No logic whatsoever. If Judaism is so important to a person, he won't abandon it and submit to worshipping someone other than G-d directly. There are sincere converts to Christianity, but they aren't ashamed of what they've done and don't try to legitimize their conversion by calling it anything other than what it is.
For the record, most mainstream Christian religions find the messies just as offensive as Jews do.
I've tried to patiently explain my views, and it appears that, at this point, the discussion is more arguing about nothing than it is asking sincere questions, especially when I've explained my position several times.
Bottom line: Believe whatever you want. But at least have the balls to admit whatever you're doing and not try to cover it up by trying to deceive Jews.
Shalom.
NOW I see where this is coming from after checking out the link. I'm not trying to defend any certain organization. I am defending Jewish people whom I have personally known to have had a true born-again experience--which, by the way, did not erase their ancestry or geneology.
NOW I see where this is coming from after checking out the link. I'm not trying to defend any certain organization. I am defending Jewish people whom I have personally known to have had a true born-again experience--which, by the way, did not erase their ancestry or geneology.
Shalom to you as well.
Yes, just to clairify, I wasn't supporting Jews for Jesus or any of those organizations but rather trying to understand how a Jew who converts to Christianity is no longer a Jew in the genetic sense. I was thinking that the term "Messianic Jew" was a clear distinction from a Jew in the religious sense.
I understand why it's upsetting religiously...oh how this happens in Christianity too where someone who has some beliefs clearly against the Bible is out there claiming to be a Christian. Frustrating.
But I was always under the impression that Jews were Jews regardless of their religious beliefs because of their genetic blood lines.
It seems like you can be a gentile (non Jewish heritage) and covert but one cannot be a gentile and covert to Christianity and stll be considered a Jew? I'm not sure I agree because if a Jew were to convert to Christianity then they are still of Jewish heritage. That doesn't change. I can see ilovejazz's point that they should clearly distinguish themselves as such. My thought is that if they say they are a Messianic Jew isn't that a clear distinction?
So...the bigger question I guess is this: Is a Jew a person's bloodline and heritage or a religion or both???
So...the bigger question I guess is this: Is a Jew a person's bloodline and heritage or a religion or both???
I've discussed this elsewhere, but I can't recall which thread, so I'll respond here.
There are two ways to be considered a Jew:
1) You were born to a Jewish mother
2) You halachically converted to Judaism.
Needless to say, one can have a Jewish mother, yet think any way he wishes, which may go against Judaism.
The problem is that Jews for Je$u$ is a religious group. The very strong implication is that a person can be religiously Jewish and Christian at the same time. You can't. Nothing will ever change the fact that a person is born Jewish, yet his actions may be quite anti-Jewish. To refer to oneself as a Jew (and please read my previous posts about this) while engaging in an anti-Jewish fashion is attempting to make a mockery out of Judaism and to deceive people into thinking that worshipping someone other than G-d Himself is "kosher" in Judaism. It definitely is not. In fact, worshipping an idol is not much different from commiting a murder. One could look at it as murdering the Jewish people.
And the statement that I've made to which all have ignored is this: if Judaism is so precious to these messies, then why aren't they observant of it? Their ancestors DIED trying to preserve the heritage, and here are messies, just spitting in their graves. The sincere converts to Christianity are not ashamed of being Christians.
I think I really expected too much when I thought that you might be able to comprehend the situation.
ilovejazz: You are saying that it is impossible to be a religious Jew and a Christian at the same time! I agree!
But if one is born to a Jewish mother (thus Jewish heritage) and is a Christian they are still a Jew in the heritage sense correct? So, if they are a real Christian and proud of it and call themselves a Messianic Jew is that not a correct description of them or no? Does that description offend you personally?
I'm not at all referring to Jews for Jesus, just regular Jews who have converted to Christianity.
I've discussed this elsewhere, but I can't recall which thread, so I'll respond here.
There are two ways to be considered a Jew:
1) You were born to a Jewish mother
2) You halachically converted to Judaism.
Needless to say, one can have a Jewish mother, yet think any way he wishes, which may go against Judaism.
The problem is that Jews for Je$u$ is a religious group. The very strong implication is that a person can be religiously Jewish and Christian at the same time. You can't. Nothing will ever change the fact that a person is born Jewish, yet his actions may be quite anti-Jewish. To refer to oneself as a Jew (and please read my previous posts about this) while engaging in an anti-Jewish fashion is attempting to make a mockery out of Judaism and to deceive people into thinking that worshipping someone other than G-d Himself is "kosher" in Judaism. It definitely is not. In fact, worshipping an idol is not much different from commiting a murder. One could look at it as murdering the Jewish people.
And the statement that I've made to which all have ignored is this: if Judaism is so precious to these messies, then why aren't they observant of it? Their ancestors DIED trying to preserve the heritage, and here are messies, just spitting in their graves. The sincere converts to Christianity are not ashamed of being Christians.
I think I really expected too much when I thought that you might be able to comprehend the situation.
Ilovejazz the people that you are talking to do not understand the concepts that make up judaism. See christians walk with faith, while jew walked with g-d. Christians religious experience is not the same and they do not adhere to the same rules. What I have learned is jews do not believe in g-d or have faith in him. They know he is real like the sun, moon, and the sky. They were their when g-d gave them the 613 commandments. Christians believe and have faith thru a demi- g-d that will save them. They are only instructed to believe that jesus will save.
Ilovejazz the people that you are talking to do not understand the concepts that make up judaism. See christians walk with faith, while jew walked with g-d. Christians religious experience is not the same and they do not adhere to the same rules. What I have learned is jews do not believe in g-d or have faith in him. They know he is real like the sun, moon, and the sky. They were their when g-d gave them the 613 commandments. Christians believe and have faith thru a demi- g-d that will save them. They are only instructed to believe that jesus will save.
Oh, this brings up another question I have! If you all would be so kind (and patient) to help explain.
The 613 commandments were given in scripture? Is that correct or is that a man made set of rules? Possibly an offshoot of the 10 commandments given in Exodus??? Second, is abiding by those rules what gets you into heaven? Or, do you get into heaven just by the mere fact that you are Jewish?
Ilovejazz...I applogize if the answer to this question is in the great link you gave me eariler. I have saved it...but haven't had time to get into it. If you simply want to refer me back to that I understand. But this is something I was wondering.
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Do you forget that Jesus WAS A JEW?
