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I grew up in the south and I will beg to differ.... Catholics were not treated like African Americans and Jews where I lived.
I am not showing bigotry when I stand up for Jews on this forum... But if you and he want to see it that way its fine. Standing up against bigotry and small mindedness is not showing bigotry. I have no quarrel with Christians, all of my extended family is Christian. I have a quarrel with Christians who show bigotry against Jews on these forums.
I cannot even imagine how you can put yourself in the shoes of the Jewish people or African Americans, much less say you have been treated like Jews have historically. The Catholics were part of the reason there was antisemitism in the first place......
I'm in my shoes, and in my shoes, I saw hatred against Roman Catholics more than against Jews in the South, where I lived, and it was always rooted in politics and the struggle for power, down through the centuries, no matter who was the power of the century, whether this one or that one.
Look, this is here, today, not there, yesterday, and yesterday, the Jews persecuted the Christians. That is historical fact. Then the Christian Church in the west became political -like the Jewish rulers and priests in Israel were, when Jesus the Messiah came in flesh- and being a political power, and having become stronger than the Jews, who had been scattered by the Roman armies of the first century and the second [not by the Christians of the first and second century, who were also persecuted by the Roman armies], then that political entity began to persecute others.
Back and forth the pendulum swings. As long as politics are played with religion, as the Jews did in the first century, and as the Roman Church did in the later centuries, and as the Calvinists did even later; then there will be the struggle for power and conquest, and hatred will reign.
Are you willing to put it down, and stop fanning the flames? -I did.
Too bad there are no conservative or Orthodox Jews here at the City-Data Religion forum to call you on it.
Well, I'm one, and I think you're way out of line. This thread was started as a nice way for folks to ask Jews about our religion. Several unpleasant people decided to "invade" and demanded that Jews defend their faith and people. Sadly, some people see the existence of Jews as a threat against their Christian faith - if we do not accept Jesus - one of our own people - then they feel it invalidated Christianity. Therefore, we must be ill informed, ignorant, or evil.
Yet it seems, when we say "enough", then we are labeled as intolerant. You seem to strongly prefer conservative and orthodox Jews over reform Jews, but please understand this - you are making more of this division than we do. People can and do join whatever shul they wish, and sometimes it depends on which Rabbi or religious school/yeshiva you like. Jews are Jews. If you have questions, ask. But this thread should be closed if its purpose is now to provide Christians a venue to attack and persecute. And that, sir, is what you are doing now.
Well, I'm one, and I think you're way out of line. This thread was started as a nice way for folks to ask Jews about our religion. Several unpleasant people decided to "invade" and demanded that Jews defend their faith and people. Sadly, some people see the existence of Jews as a threat against their Christian faith - if we do not accept Jesus - one of our own people - then they feel it invalidated Christianity. Therefore, we must be ill informed, ignorant, or evil.
Yet it seems, when we say "enough", then we are labeled as intolerant. You seem to strongly prefer conservative and orthodox Jews over reform Jews, but please understand this - you are making more of this division than we do. People can and do join whatever shul they wish, and sometimes it depends on which Rabbi or religious school/yeshiva you like. Jews are Jews. If you have questions, ask. But this thread should be closed if its purpose is now to provide Christians a venue to attack and persecute. And that, sir, is what you are doing now.
Several unpleasant people decided to "invade" and demanded that Jews defend their faith and people
And these bigots should be dealt with accordingly.
I support the efforts of ALL here, including Jazzymom, 100% in saying "enough" and in fighting Anti-semitism at this forum, including on this particular thread. This is why I have continued to report Anti-semitic comments to the mods over the last several months.
What I do not support, however, is the insulting and demeaning comments toward all Christians, and about the Christian faith as a whole, that characterise many of Jazzymom's posts across the entire forum -- not just on this particular thread. What you have apparently done is taken my criticism of this aspect of Jazzymom's "approach" as (1) an attempt to deny or minimise Anti-semitism or (2) an attempt to criticise her for standing up against Anti-semitism. According to Jazzymom's logic (and apparently yours), however, merely questioning her personal "mode of operation" constitutes a denial of anti-semitism. Talk about a leap in logic.
As regards my supposed "preference" for conservative and orthodox Jews over reform -- perhaps you should go back and read my original post. As I explained, the Jews I know are orthodox and conservative, and these individuals have never engaged in the deragotory statements about "Christians" as an entire group that Jazzymom favors, at least in any of our conversations. I was genuinely curious whether the way she carries on here at City-Data is considered acceptable behavior within her own local community. There are very real theological and cultural differences between these groups, and asking a legitimate question about these differences does not rise to the level of "persecution."
I will say it one more time: I fully support Jazzymom in fighting Antisemitism at this forum. I DO NOT support the posts--and there are many--where she is insulting and demaning toward all Christians.
You are way out of line.
NB: I have just noticed you are a recent member of City-Data. Unless you have been lurking for several months, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you have not read through many of Jazzymom's earlier posts. Had you done so, you would see clear evidence of the pattern I describe.
Last edited by DreamingSpires; 04-02-2010 at 04:37 AM..
Reason: grammar
I have just spent a few minutes going through some of Jazzymom's posts only from the last couple of weeks. I have seen worse from her-- and the list would be much, much longer, and more explicit, if I had the time to go back a few months.
If you substitute the word "Jew" for "Christian" and "Judaism" for "Christianity" in these posts, perhaps you will understand better the source of my criticisms of Jazzymom. Perhaps not -- but if this is behavior you wish to sanction and condone, by all means please do so, so that we may learn where you stand.
As I stated earlier, I do not know other Jews who speak this way about Christianity and Christians on a consistent basis (we can all have our "moments" and I allow for this), and I still wonder whether this is considered acceptable behavior in the larger Jewish community. Moreover, if Jazzymom doesn't wish to be challenged on these types of statements, perhaps she should choose her words more carefully--or at least confine them to DM.
Here are only a handful of very recent "highlights" (emphases mine):
And I am sooooo glad not to be Christian but Jewish.. Every rude post by the self-righteous only makes me so much happier that I walked away from Christianity when I did.
..............
Here she goes on Muslims as an entire group:
Why not? Muslims blame everyone else for their problems.. Muslims are still causing violence in the world... In fact soon Iran will have an atomic bomb... They are not a peaceful country are they???
Yes I can blame Muslims for violence...
......................
Only "liberal Christians" are acceptable to Jazzymom? The rest of us Christians are a scary of bunch bigots?
True you all don't think like that. My family doesn't think like that and many Christians I know don't think like that but they are on the liberal end of Christianity. But the Christians on the other end of the spectrum and many who are on this board are a scary bunch of people and they do think like that.
..............
More on "Christianity is an arrogant religion":
Arrogant and what more can I say? It was a knife because you caused the DEATH of thousands of Jewish people and exiled them from your countries when they wouldn't convert.
Death and more death and destruction.... Forget the heart and Jesus and what you believe.
Christianity is an arrogant religion that cares not one bit for the people it hurts in the process of its missionary work.
......
Here she goes misrepresenting the teachings my faith (Christians say "all but them are going to hell?") in order to inflame anti-Christian sentiment:
just love the arrogance of Christians as they know exactly what G-d is going to do. G-d will not forsake any of his children, he has room for all of us. One day all Christians will find you are not the only folks who G-d had a place for. Won't you all be surprised........
..............
No, I am not doing the same thing. I am just saying for all the arrogance of Christians to say they are the only ones saved, wouldn't they be surprised to get to heaven and see a bunch of other people there who are not Christian. I believe G-d has a place for all his children be they Jew or non-Jew. Its the Christians who say all but them are going to hell. I have never said that. I believe in a loving and giving G-d who loves all his children not just one group. So I suppose if you can say how do I know, then I guess how do you know? Because what I believe comes from my Hebrew Bible, just as what you believe comes from your Bible.
Last edited by DreamingSpires; 04-02-2010 at 06:00 AM..
Reason: clarity
fanning the flames, I think not. I actually have said several time you are welcome to your opinion and me to mine. I am done and any more since this is really off topic. Its ask a Jew not attack a Jew.
So I will not respond again to either Dreamingspires or Yeshuasaved me.
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