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Even in the Jewish religion, there are varying views on the importance of belief. Jews have always been about the law and tradition, and living in the here and now. They don't really care about the afterlife or lots of supernatural phenomenon.
This is not what I observe when reading the Tanakh or Old Testament. The great men of the Faith such as Moses, David, Abraham, etc... all cared deeply what God thought, said, and was like. The spiritual realm was a huge part of their lives. And they were very involved with the worship of God. Maybe for more modern Jews this is no longer the case. But I don't see that as a common trend through any holy writtings.
This is not what I observe when reading the Tanakh or Old Testament. The great men of the Faith such as Moses, David, Abraham, etc... all cared deeply what God thought, said, and was like. The spiritual realm was a huge part of their lives. And they were very involved with the worship of God. Maybe for more modern Jews this is no longer the case. But I don't see that as a common trend through any holy writtings.
Derek
They cared deeply about God as a Supreme being, but not about the Afterlife, or Supernatural like Christians do. There is no Hell, or demons, etc. in Judaism. Their focus was on living by the law on Earth.
Unlike many other religions, Judaism does not focus much on abstract cosmological concepts. Although Jews have certainly considered the nature of G-d, man, the universe, life and the afterlife at great length (see Kabbalah and Jewish Mysticism), there is no mandated, official, definitive belief on these subjects, outside of the very general concepts discussed above. There is substantial room for personal opinion on all of these matters, because as I said before, Judaism is more concerned about actions than beliefs.
They cared deeply about God as a Supreme being, but not about the Afterlife, or Supernatural like Christians do. There is no Hell, or demons, etc. in Judaism. Their focus was on living by the law on Earth.
....
Moses didn't care about what God said or did Supernaturally? The Children of Israel didn't care that God passed over their homes while striking dead the Egyptians? Israel didn't care that God lead them through the Red Sea supernaturally? David didn't care what God thought and directed him to do? Daniel didn't care that God spared his life in the lion's den? The prophets weren't too concerned about those silly supernatural things? Sorry, I just don't buy it. Maybe things are different now for some in the way the choose to live their lives. But that doesn't change what has been documented through these holy writtings, whether one choses to believe in and worship a supernatural God today or not.
If it's your great grandmother on your mother's side, yes.
Actually its the MOTHER and the MOTHER ONLY. And just like you can convert to judiasm you can convert OUT of it as well. A person who belives in the idea of "jesus" has left the Jewish religion complely. While technically he was still BORN a jew, that would be his or her ONLY claim. If its a woman, who converted to "messianic" or Jews for Jesus, etc - if it is a woman who was BORN a jew but converted to belive in "jesus" (by whatever name you wish to call him) her children will not be considered to be jewish at all and not jews at all. The 5000 year old line ends with her.
Actually its the MOTHER and the MOTHER ONLY. And just like you can convert to judiasm you can convert OUT of it as well. A person who belives in the idea of "jesus" has left the Jewish religion complely. While technically he was still BORN a jew, that would be his or her ONLY claim. If its a woman, who converted to "messianic" or Jews for Jesus, etc - if it is a woman who was BORN a jew but converted to belive in "jesus" (by whatever name you wish to call him) her children will not be considered to be jewish at all and not jews at all. The 5000 year old line ends with her.
So what you are saying, or maybe the collective here, is that a person is a Jew by birth - they're birthright vs, what they believe. And they can choose to deny their God = believe he doesn't exist/Atheist. Yet they remain in the family -> Children of Israel still right? Yet you then add an exception clause and say someone like Jesus or his Jewish disciples come along and they are no longer Jews by this same definition? So deny God/Atheist = still in the family, Jew for Jesus = no, sorry your out of luck. That like seems double standard and contradiction of the definition at the very least. One standard for the atheist and a completely different one for the Jew for Jesus.
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So are you saying a member of the People of Isreal is still a Jew regardless of their actions/decisions/beliefs, etc..?
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
According to Jewish law, and to those (esp the Orthodox) who study Jewish law closely, yes.
Derek
Last edited by MtnSurfer; 07-28-2011 at 08:28 PM..
I get the impression that what bothers Jewish people about the so-called "messianic Jews" or "Jews For Jesus" is that once they have converted to another religion - Christianity! - they are still trying to maintain they are authentically Jewish ... hmmmm
If you follow Jesus now wouldn't be more honest and direct to just declare yourself a Christian?
I guess it's like being an American. Even if you move to another country - say you decide to retire to Costa Rica - you are still an American, assuming you hold onto your American Passport; even if you're living in Costa Rica, speaking Spanish, paying local taxes, etc. On the other hand, if you renounce your American citizenship, give up the passport, legally become a citizen of Costa Rica, get one of their passports ... who knows? even serve in the Costa Rican military or get elected to political office over there ... you are now no longer an American. This is just a thought. Am I way off base?
I get the impression that what bothers Jewish people about the so-called "messianic Jews" or "Jews For Jesus" is that once they have converted to another religion - Christianity! - they are still trying to maintain they are authentically Jewish ... hmmmm
If you follow Jesus now wouldn't be more honest and direct to just declare yourself a Christian?
I guess it's like being an American. Even if you move to another country - say you decide to retire to Costa Rica - you are still an American, assuming you hold onto your American Passport; even if you're living in Costa Rica, speaking Spanish, paying local taxes, etc. On the other hand, if you renounce your American citizenship, give up the passport, legally become a citizen of Costa Rica, get one of their passports ... who knows? even serve in the Costa Rican military or get elected to political office over there ... you are now no longer an American. This is just a thought. Am I way off base?
exactly! one can no more be in the jewish religion and belive in the idea of jesus then can someone belive in mohammad and be a christian!
So what you are saying, or maybe the collective here, is that a person is a Jew by birth - they're birthright vs, what they believe. And they can choose to deny their God = believe he doesn't exist/Atheist. Yet they remain in the family -> Children of Israel still right? Yet you then add an exception clause and say someone like Jesus or his Jewish disciples come along and they are no longer Jews by this same definition? So deny God/Atheist = still in the family, Jew for Jesus = no, sorry your out of luck. That like seems double standard and contradiction of the definition at the very least. One standard for the atheist and a completely different one for the Jew for Jesus.
Derek
NO, they are still a "JEW" by birth, but they have left the religion of judiasm. (thats true for athiests as well, but athiests are different since they do not transfer to another religion) Some one who was born a jew and converts to chritianity, hinduism, buddhism, sikhism, islam, wiccan, etc are still born jews, and thus they can RETURN to judiasm with out conversions. And for a woman who converts her children are not jews or jewish. (belife in jesus is conversion out of judiasm)
I get the impression that what bothers Jewish people about the so-called "messianic Jews" or "Jews For Jesus" is that once they have converted to another religion - Christianity! - they are still trying to maintain they are authentically Jewish ... hmmmm
If you follow Jesus now wouldn't be more honest and direct to just declare yourself a Christian?
I guess it's like being an American. Even if you move to another country - say you decide to retire to Costa Rica - you are still an American, assuming you hold onto your American Passport; even if you're living in Costa Rica, speaking Spanish, paying local taxes, etc. On the other hand, if you renounce your American citizenship, give up the passport, legally become a citizen of Costa Rica, get one of their passports ... who knows? even serve in the Costa Rican military or get elected to political office over there ... you are now no longer an American. This is just a thought. Am I way off base?
Ok, I think I get that. But by the same token I will also point out from a Christian perespective Jesus stated:
Quote:
Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
The Christian embraces the God of Israel as does Jesus and as did his Jewish disciples. There is no differentiation. It is simply history unfolding. Of course I realize Jews don't see it this way, as they don't accept Jesus as Messiah. I find it convenient how He is removed in some of their minds as a Jew who would celebrate Jewish festivals such as Passover, Hanukkah, etc... yet an atheist, murderer, evil or immoral person is not. So a Jew for Jesus celebrating Passover or enjoying the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible is a bad thing in their minds.
Actually its the MOTHER and the MOTHER ONLY. And just like you can convert to judiasm you can convert OUT of it as well. A person who belives in the idea of "jesus" has left the Jewish religion complely. While technically he was still BORN a jew, that would be his or her ONLY claim. If its a woman, who converted to "messianic" or Jews for Jesus, etc - if it is a woman who was BORN a jew but converted to belive in "jesus" (by whatever name you wish to call him) her children will not be considered to be jewish at all and not jews at all. The 5000 year old line ends with her.
If her great grandmother is Jewish, that means her grandmother is, which means her mother is.
Stop interjecting your obnoxious anti-Messianic opinion into this discussion. I don't give a crap what you or other mainstream Jews believe about the issue. Drop it.
And you are wrong. If a Jewish woman converts to Christianity, she is still Jewish, as would be her children. Her religion is irrelevant. Matrilineal descent does not end based on one's belief system.
It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship.
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So a Jew for Jesus celebrating Passover or enjoying the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible is a bad thing in their minds.
