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Old 12-06-2011, 06:04 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 7,147,231 times
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Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Thanks for the references!

I guess that's a good enough warrant to dismiss their ideas, in my opinion. I'm always wary of Christians who suddenly discover "new" applications of "prophecy" that have long ago been either "fulfilled" during the context of the original writing down of the prophecies, or been "un-fulfilled" because they just plain didn't come to pass. The Book of Daniel is a very late book that actively inserts prophecies into a pseudo-historical setting that "predicts" events that the author already knew had happened. Since the Prophet Daniel had been a supposedly historical figure, this late authorship seems to have done what it was intended to do: give the work an air of authority by using a known historical Prophet.

And this isn't even mentioning the correlation with Daniel and Dan'el of Ugaritic fame. Daniel (or Dan'el as some translate today) is listed along Job and Noah (if I remember correctly) as being famous historical figures with stories and myths associated with them prior to their inclusion in the Hebrew Bible. Later writers probably chose Job (and the folktales surrounding the middle section) as his subject for the Book of Job, just as the later author of the Book of Daniel seems to have chosen Dan'el and placed him in a late exilic setting.

But, I think the Dispensationlists have a strange way of looking at things. I remember my first Bible was a Scofield Reference Bible, and even at my early age I found myself disagreeing with many of his claims. It sure gave fuel to the fire of all those people screaming that Russia was the Great Bear of the North in Revelations lol. Not so "Great", anymore....
My early days in Christianity was at the height of Soviet fear and their supposed plot to invade Israel in fulfillment of Ezekiel 38 and 39. There was that whole "Gog" and "Magog" nonsense going on and to be honest, the way I looked at it (with my blind-faith goggles on), it sure made sense back then. Then, as I did with so many other passages, I started taking a new look after my de-conversion. I never paid attention to the language of the alleged prophecies of those two chapters. The writer points out that the predicted invasion would take place after the exiles came back from captivity and re-established their fortified walls. The language of the prediction clearly sounds like that of old-fashioned siege warfare. The mention of horses, bows, arrows, clubs and spears certainly does NOT sound like anything beyond 2200 BCE. Of course, this was NEVER raised as a point of objection but I figure the reply would be, "well the writer could not describe military helicopters and modern tanks so he described them in the language available to him at the time." Of course, Hal Lindsay made this view popular in his book, The Late, Great Planet Earth. Frankly, it a demonstrable lame attempt.
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Old 12-06-2011, 08:34 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,461,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
My early days in Christianity was at the height of Soviet fear and their supposed plot to invade Israel in fulfillment of Ezekiel 38 and 39. There was that whole "Gog" and "Magog" nonsense going on and to be honest, the way I looked at it (with my blind-faith goggles on), it sure made sense back then. Then, as I did with so many other passages, I started taking a new look after my de-conversion. I never paid attention to the language of the alleged prophecies of those two chapters. The writer points out that the predicted invasion would take place after the exiles came back from captivity and re-established their fortified walls. The language of the prediction clearly sounds like that of old-fashioned siege warfare. The mention of horses, bows, arrows, clubs and spears certainly does NOT sound like anything beyond 2200 BCE. Of course, this was NEVER raised as a point of objection but I figure the reply would be, "well the writer could not describe military helicopters and modern tanks so he described them in the language available to him at the time." Of course, Hal Lindsay made this view popular in his book, The Late, Great Planet Earth. Frankly, it a demonstrable lame attempt.

The line about the blood being so deep it would rise up to a horse's belly gave me pause heh heh, so I see where you're coming from! I couldn't imagine the Americans and Russians fighting on horses in today's age. I, too, went through the belief that the Great Bear of the North would start Armageddon and all that nonsense that was never intended for us.

You are exactly right about the technology mentioned in the prophecy, too. It's wonderful how literal some can be, but so un-literal at the same time - right? (the prophecy means THIS, but the details don't matter...)
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Old 12-07-2011, 12:11 PM
 
4,433 posts, read 3,630,416 times
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Sorry, I'm new here. What exactly is a "de-conversion?"
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Old 12-08-2011, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,054 posts, read 31,406,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Personally, how do you feel about Zionism (if you don't mind answering)?

Zionism (by the way, for those other people who are not aware of the actual meaning, besides conspiracy theories) is basically an approach to "Jewishness" that has a Nationalistic goal: the establishment of a homeland, a Nation.
Personally, I'm in favor. I'm just choosing not to relocate.
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Old 12-08-2011, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
617 posts, read 615,886 times
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Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
Personally, I'm in favor. I'm just choosing not to relocate.

Because they are Jews like you, huh ?

Zionism is the movement of criminal and unrelated to the religion of Moses, peace be upon him

It Exploited the Jewish to pass malicious objectives

I hope they go to another planet, Personally, I see them as vampires
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Old 12-08-2011, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,054 posts, read 31,406,742 times
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Originally Posted by weaam View Post
Zionism is the movement of criminal and unrelated to the religion of Moses, peace be upon him

It Exploited the Jewish to pass malicious objectives

I hope they go to another planet, Personally, I see them as vampires
Well, you certainly make your position clear. You're facing off in the wrong direction, but you're perfectly clear.

So, as far as you're concerned, Jews should neither want nor have a homeland, eh? Well, as we say here in New York, in your face. How do you like that?
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Old 12-08-2011, 02:53 PM
 
Location: USA
21,614 posts, read 15,968,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weaam View Post
Because they are Jews like you, huh ?

Zionism is the movement of criminal and unrelated to the religion of Moses, peace be upon him

It Exploited the Jewish to pass malicious objectives

I hope they go to another planet, Personally, I see them as vampires
You really have no say, you have your Muslim country and they have their Jewish country. If we decided to take away theirs we could just as well take aways yours.
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Old 12-08-2011, 02:56 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,461,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
Well, you certainly make your position clear. You're facing off in the wrong direction, but you're perfectly clear.

So, as far as you're concerned, Jews should neither want nor have a homeland, eh? Well, as we say here in New York, in your face. How do you like that?
Ha ha!

What else can you say to someone like that?

Thank you, by the way, for answering my question. Unlike angry-man above, I was just curious as to your personal feelings on it. I have a good friend who went to many Zionist youth-camps, and while he is practically an atheist - he still feels strongly for the Nationalist ideals, and has volunteered for the Israeli Army on a number of occasions.
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Old 12-08-2011, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
617 posts, read 615,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
Well, you certainly make your position clear. You're facing off in the wrong direction, but you're perfectly clear.

So, as far as you're concerned, Jews should neither want nor have a homeland, eh? Well, as we say here in New York, in your face. How do you like that?

Clarity is a good thing isn't it ?

The issue is not Jews should neither want nor have a homeland or not but Greater than this

Mainly, all three religions have along the historic and religious in Palestine but when homeland is at the expense of others that's would be Unacceptable

you say homeland and get it by expulsion of its people and displacement and demolition of homes this is contrary to the Torah and the Quran


Zionists have used the Torah to achieve their political goals and convince the Jews to emigrating through


and the evidence is what was the big goal for Israel when they came to the Middle East ? you as a jew know that " Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates and are still aspireing to it"


I know many of Jews hate and reject the Zionism and Do not see it represent the Jewish , it is a secular political movement


And history showed that, Before Zionism was the Muslims, Christians and Jews in Palestine living in peace Side by side

homeland is not taken by war and the violation

Anyway I hate to talk in these subjects it is Sterile
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Old 12-08-2011, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
617 posts, read 615,886 times
Reputation: 50
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Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
You really have no say, you have your Muslim country and they have their Jewish country. If we decided to take away theirs we could just as well take aways yours.


I explained what I want to say to Fred314X , All Arabs hate Zionist Israel and they the same thing , they hate each other and this natural result of the wars
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